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Chris Martin eltrain

10th fret inlay mark

1246711

Comments

  • Al WatskyAl Watsky New JerseyVirtuoso
    Posts: 440
    I use and recommend White Out !
    It rubs right off.
  • klaatuklaatu Nova ScotiaProdigy Rodrigo Shopis D'Artagnan, 1950s Jacques Castelluccia
    Posts: 1,659
    Frankly, I think the "idiots" were Maurice Selmer and his crew back in the 1930's/40's who chose the 10th fret for the marker. They used mandolin markers as the basis instead of guitar markers.

    Something seems to have happened to a response that I though I has posted a few days ago. Anyway, I recall reading somewhere (sorry, don't remember where) that the 10th fret was picked to appeal to the many jazz banjo players who were switching to guitar in the 30s.

    The 9th fret on American guitars had nothing to do with note locations, it was simply selected because it appears to be symmetrical visually. The initial fret marker is usually at the 3rd fret from the nut (or zero fret), so they placed the next ones at 5, 7, and then 9 because it is three frets from 12.

    I made the switch to 10 after Michael Horowitz advised me against moving the dot on a Dupont, because he felt it would devalue it. It is true that you can move it back if so desired, but it is still evident that there has been a modification. If you never plan to sell your guitar, then it's no big deal. Now I love it at 10, and since most of my playing is on my GJ guitar, I just put up with the 9th fret when I switch to another guitar.

    Benny

    "It's a great feeling to be dealing with material which is better than yourself, that you know you can never live up to."
    -- Orson Welles
  • StringswingerStringswinger Santa Cruz and San Francisco, CA✭✭✭✭ 1993 Dupont MD-20, Shelley Park Encore
    Posts: 414
    @klaatu, even if marketing to banjo players was the motivation, it was still a foolish move considering the different tuning of the two intruments. Players to this day ( like the original poster in this thread) find it a bit confusing.

    The fact is that dot placement has little to do with referencing certain notes on the 5th and 6th strings. It is a random placement for esthetic purposes. Arguing that one or the other is better for all is the province of a fool. Each can be adapted to and works just fine. Lesser players will be challenged when playing an instrument that is different than their own.

    In the 10 years that I have been involved with this forum, I have read some far fetched ideas. Comparing 9th fret dot placement with burning witches may be the farthest fetched idea yet. 8-|

    Cheers, Marc
    www.hotclubpacific.com
    "When the chord changes, you should change" Joe Pass
  • klaatuklaatu Nova ScotiaProdigy Rodrigo Shopis D'Artagnan, 1950s Jacques Castelluccia
    Posts: 1,659
    Well, as to whether it was a foolish move or not, I guess you'd have to ask banjo players from the 30s. Talked to any lately?
    Benny

    "It's a great feeling to be dealing with material which is better than yourself, that you know you can never live up to."
    -- Orson Welles
  • bopsterbopster St. Louis, MOProdigy Altamira M30, Wide Sky PL-1, 1940? French mystery guitar
    Posts: 484
    Just to throw in another theory - the Fibonacci series. This was posted on another forum:

    Maybe lost to history, the dots are references for the Fibonacci series, which when harmonics are considered, give a pure major chord with octave and perfect fifth redundancies. The dot at the 9th fret marks 2/5ths the string length. The harmonic there is of the 5th partial (the major third) -- this is the one that throws you off.

    This is my observation, and it is so easy once seen, that I have little doubt that many people have stumbled across it. Nonetheless, Gibson and Martin guitars had nothing to say about it, and so far as I could see, nothing to see in google searches. THE DOTS MARK THE HARMONICS COMPRISING A PURE MAJOR CHORD.

    Are the dots an atavism from pre-equal tempered tuning? In historical paintings of fretted instruments, or in museums, when are the earliest dots seen in their modern location??

    string
    open = 1 = do
    dots
    12 = 2nd partial = do (octave over root)
    7 = 3rd partial = sol (perfect 5th + octave over root)
    5 = 4th partial = do (double octave over root)
    9 = 5th partial = mi (double octave + major third over root)
    3 = 6th partial = sol (double octave + perfect 5th over root)
    pickitjohnBucoNone
  • pickitjohnpickitjohn South Texas Corpus, San Antonio, AustinVirtuoso Patenotte 260
    edited March 2015 Posts: 936
    @bopster

    I like it...

    Nothing like
    a little Cosmic Explanation to enlighten us.
    Gonna smoke another beer and contemplate that one a little.

    I'm Serious...

  • Lango-DjangoLango-Django Niagara-On-The-Lake, ONModerator
    edited March 2015 Posts: 1,415
    klaatu wrote: »
    Something seems to have happened to a response that I though I has posted a few days ago. Anyway, I recall reading somewhere (sorry, don't remember where) that the 10th fret was picked to appeal to the many jazz banjo players who were switching to guitar in the 30s.

    Speaking as a longtime plectrum banjo guy who plays jazz from the 20's and 30's, I can verify that we DO like our 10th fret marker. It leads us right to those all-important F, Bb and C7 chords.

    And quite frankly, it's been a long time since ANYBODY gave us credit for ANYTHING. ;-)

    So thanks, klaatu, and may you poor bastards in Nova Scotia finally get the warm spring weather you so richly deserve!

    Will
    Niagara-On-The-Lake, ON

    My religion is, I worship Lang the Father, Django the Son, and Oscar the Holy Ghost...

    While converts are always welcome, I get to be the Pope because I thought of this religion before you did...
  • klaatuklaatu Nova ScotiaProdigy Rodrigo Shopis D'Artagnan, 1950s Jacques Castelluccia
    Posts: 1,659
    So thanks, klaatu, and may you poor bastards in Nova Scotia finally get the warm spring weather you so richly deserve!

    And tonight it's %&#$ing SNOWING AGAIN!!!!!
    Benny

    "It's a great feeling to be dealing with material which is better than yourself, that you know you can never live up to."
    -- Orson Welles
  • Posts: 2,783
    This harmonics business to me is the most compelling reason yet to use 9th instead of 10th fret dot, you get harmonics on 3, 5, 7, 9 and 12 but not 10.

    Every note wants to go somewhere-Kurt Rosenwinkel
  • JehuJehu New Zealand✭✭✭
    Posts: 77
    Does anyone realistically use the overtone series in fretboard visualisation?!

    (And I feel your pain, Klaatu... I grew up in Saskatchewan and lived in St. John's NL for two years.)
    Wim Glenn
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