DjangoBooks.com

Valse Manouche - Django or not?

Teddy DupontTeddy Dupont Deity
edited November 2011 in History Posts: 1,257
I have never been convinced that it is Django playing on the poor quality recording of Valse Manouche/Choti (Fremeaux Vol 20). This is not because of the actual playing which I think sounds exactly like Django but because of the nature of the tune structure and because I could not see under what circumstances Django would perform such a piece. Having said that, I do accept the quality of the performance is such that it is hard to imagine anyone else being able to articulate it so perfectly. Baro Ferret probably had the technical ability but he was usually a very forceful, dramatic player and much of the playing on this recording sounds to me too subtle and nuanced for him.

Yet once Django heard jazz in the early thirties, he had no apparent interest in waltzes (remember waltzes were brought into Gypsy Jazz by the Ferret brothers not Django). Django believed himself to be a jazz musician and I could not believe he would play such a piece after he had become famous as a jazz/swing guitarist with the Quintette du Hot Club de France. Even more anachronistic is the fact that the accompanying instrument is a piano and not a guitar. The structure of the recording is also quite wrong for Django. It is a learned piece that is played EXACTLY the same each chorus. Django simply did not do that. Even “Improvisation No 2” which despite it’s name, is clearly pre-prepared, varies from one chorus to another. There is nothing else we hear Django playing that is anything like this recording in structure.

When I first got a copy of the recording many years ago before it was officially issued, the information that came with it said it was from a 1935 BBC radio broadcast. That made no sense to me. Why would the BBC record (presumably in France) and then broadcast Django Reinhardt, a guitarist just becoming known in the UK as a hot jazz player within a unique string band, performing an obscure sounding waltz with a piano. However, I now actually think this is a possibility. In April, 1934, before he had made any recordings with the Quintette, Django came to England with Jean Sablon to play an engagement at the “Monseigneur” club in Piccadilly, London. During this time, he apparently made a London regional radio broadcast about which, sadly, I have no information. If this is true, it could well be that Django did perform “Valse Manouche” on that broadcast with the pianist Alec Siniavine who also came to the UK as part of Sablon’s trio, and it was somehow recorded. At that stage in his career and on such a program with Sablon, even I feel it it possible Django would play a waltz since his style was still developing and he had no jazz credentials that he felt he needed to live up to.

I am still not 100% convinced it is Django but one of my doubts has, to some extent, been removed.
«13456789

Comments

  • MichaelHorowitzMichaelHorowitz SeattleAdministrator
    Posts: 6,152
    Hi Richard....thanks for sharing your detailed research on this. I also had that radio broadcast version from the BBC so this possibly explains that recording. Nice work!

    Michael
  • spatzospatzo Virtuoso
    Posts: 768
    I personnaly really do not recognize Django in that recording in none of the phrases...

    However it is strange that a copyright for this song was depositated in London under the name of Django Reinhardt. Other sources indicate that Choti, Gagoug etc... should be the surnames of some of Lousson's children.

    If I remember well it has been depositated at Chappell of Bond Street. I bought the sheet music 15 years ago. I will check at the soonest
  • Teddy DupontTeddy Dupont Deity
    Posts: 1,257
    spatzo wrote:
    I personnaly really do not recognize Django in that recording in none of the phrases...
    I am still not totally convinced it is Django but I do think some of the playing does sound very much like him (extract below).

    I certainly do not believe all the watzes in the "Django Reinhardt Undiscovered - Inedit" book/CD are Django compositions. Some of them sound exactly like Matelo Ferret creations to me with perhaps some phrases he remembers hearing Django play many years before. "Montagne Sainte- Genevieve" sounds very Django though. - The copyright on these walzes appears to be 1960 which also makes me very suspicious.

    If it is not Django playing, who do you think it is Spatzo? Surely only Baro Ferret has that level of technical fluency from those days.
  • spatzospatzo Virtuoso
    Posts: 768
    I think it can be better Baro!

    For more on this we have to refer to Scothttp://www.djangobooks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7408
  • Teddy DupontTeddy Dupont Deity
    Posts: 1,257
    spatzo wrote:
    For more on this we have to refer to Scothttp://www.djangobooks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=7408
    Despite what Elios Ferre may have said, I am not still not 100% convinced it is Django playing "Valse Manouche" although I am not as certain it isn't him as Spatzo appears to be. However, I am pretty much 100% sure he did not compose all the tunes in the "Undiscovered - Inedit" book attributed to him. The idea that Django composed some of these pre-1928 and somehow Matelo Ferret, who I didn't meet Django until 1931/32, "suddenly" remembered them and decided to record them nearly 30 years later is less than totally convincing to me.

    I think the "authenticity" of the picture on the front of the EP which contains the first recordings of several of these tunes sums up my views as to the provenance of the compositions.
    wim
  • Svanis1337Svanis1337 ✭✭✭
    Posts: 457
    Hi Richard....thanks for sharing your detailed research on this. I also had that radio broadcast version from the BBC so this possibly explains that recording. Nice work!

    Pardon? I think we have a case of mistaken identity. :)
  • Teddy DupontTeddy Dupont Deity
    Posts: 1,257
    Svanis1337 wrote:
    Hi Richard....thanks for sharing your detailed research on this. I also had that radio broadcast version from the BBC so this possibly explains that recording. Nice work!

    Pardon? I think we have a case of mistaken identity. :)
    Yes. He always does that even though we have been in contact many times. :roll:
  • MinorBluesMinorBlues New York✭✭✭
    Posts: 80
    Is there any Baro recording out there that suggests he can handle that chromatic line so perfectly? I'd be curious to hear it for comparison.
  • MichaelHorowitzMichaelHorowitz SeattleAdministrator
    Posts: 6,152
    Svanis1337 wrote:
    Hi Richard....thanks for sharing your detailed research on this. I also had that radio broadcast version from the BBC so this possibly explains that recording. Nice work!

    Pardon? I think we have a case of mistaken identity. :)
    Yes. He always does that even though we have been in contact many times. :roll:

    duh, sorry Roger! :oops:
  • Super Mario MaccaferriSuper Mario Maccaferri Route Nationale 20, FranceNew
    Posts: 246
    MinorBlues wrote:
    Is there any Baro recording out there that suggests he can handle that chromatic line so perfectly? I'd be curious to hear it for comparison.


    I second that

    When he listens to the recording of Choti, Stochelo Rosenberg is 100% sure it's Django.
    "There's no business like shoe business"
Sign In or Register to comment.
Home  |  Forum  |  Blog  |  Contact  |  206-528-9873
The Premier Gypsy Jazz Marketplace
DjangoBooks.com
USD CAD GBP EUR AUD
USD CAD GBP EUR AUD
Banner Adverts
Sell Your Guitar
© 2024 DjangoBooks.com, all rights reserved worldwide.
Software: Kryptronic eCommerce, Copyright 1999-2024 Kryptronic, Inc. Exec Time: 0.027727 Seconds Memory Usage: 1.008797 Megabytes
Kryptronic