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Nov Song Of The Month--Django's Castle

13

Comments

  • Carlo GentenaarCarlo Gentenaar The Netherlands✭✭ John Le Voi
    edited November 2021 Posts: 77

    Well you said:'at least I think so' and 'it also looks like an F major'. So I thought there was a question in there. And I was triggered by your earlier remark (about finding a system) that was similar to 'That's the only way I'll get any use out it in improvising'.

  • Posts: 4,777

    OK in that case thanks for confirming my thinking. I said F minor though. Not sure what the remark was about finding a system was...

    Every note wants to go somewhere-Kurt Rosenwinkel
  • Carlo GentenaarCarlo Gentenaar The Netherlands✭✭ John Le Voi
    edited November 2021 Posts: 77

    Ah yes that was a typo. About the system you said: "Now if I could only retain and use this myself...still haven't found a system to do just that, other than drilling it into you by mercilessly playing it everywhere".

  • Posts: 4,777

    Ah yes, well for one I believe that approach to getting better at playing and improvising needs to be systematic in some way. Also understanding musically what's going on in a phrase doesn't make you a better player, repetition does, but it does make you a better musician in a sense.

    Every note wants to go somewhere-Kurt Rosenwinkel
  • Carlo GentenaarCarlo Gentenaar The Netherlands✭✭ John Le Voi
    Posts: 77

    I think the two go hand in hand. I think knowing where a lick comes from and really understanding how it was built to the point that you could have been te one who improvised it helps with putting new licks to use without having to repeat them a hundred times first. For example the lick you posted, you are already able to play so I wonder what will the repetition add to that? Do you mean you need to repeat it so it will intuitively show up in your improvisation?

  • billyshakesbillyshakes NoVA✭✭✭ Park Avance - Dupont Nomade - Dupont DM-50E
    edited November 2021 Posts: 1,314

    I think I can see what Carlo is trying to say. He mentioned the CAGED system and seeing parts of this lick overlaid over chords. I was just working on the B section of the waltz Passion. There is a variation in the second part of the B and I was contemplating whether I had enough time in my practice session to start to look at it. However, when I briefly saw that it was just a few arpeggios overlaid onto a few chords, I was quickly able to memorize the lick. Then, as you say Buco, the slow repetition has to come to get it under your fingers and useful. But, the ability to "acquire" it at first, or just to understand what was going on, was helped by my understanding of the music theory. Without that, I would have just been reading numbers (dots) on a page.

    So, yes, they go hand in hand and understanding the music can help you. It means that I could make a variation of the specific notes in each of those arpeggios that overlaid the chords. Instead of being a slave to just the one version, I can see what other notes are available!

    Carlo Gentenaar
  • Posts: 4,777

    Do you mean you need to repeat it so it will intuitively show up in your improvisation?

    Yes, that. But the fact that I can play it the way I did in the video doesn't help during a performance. Luckily I'm not alone there so I'm fine with that. I've heard Joscho say if he's trying to make more complex phrase or a lick a natural part of his vocubulary it can take 2-3 months of practice. Jazz virtuoso Bobby Broom said a similar thing too. Christian VH said similar a few times in his videos and added for a lick to just become a part of his improv he needs to repeat it hundreds if not thousands of times. Or check out this video, greatest of the greats George Benson, listen what he says around 1:50

    So I am thinking the same like both of you, all the understanding is helping you transcribe easier and faster, understanding what you play makes it possible to come up with your own stuff etc...but on a bandstand or in a jam where that phrase needs to fire up in a tiny fraction of a second... not so sure.

    WillieCarlo GentenaarBillDaCostaWilliamsMichaelHorowitzBones
    Every note wants to go somewhere-Kurt Rosenwinkel
  • Carlo GentenaarCarlo Gentenaar The Netherlands✭✭ John Le Voi
    edited November 2021 Posts: 77

    We indeed think alike and I fully agree that repetition is key and it's nice to hear even George Benson found that only one out of ten licks emerged. I was kinda hoping someone would react with a secret code that I missed somehow, but that was wishful thinking I guess... Well at least the next time I start repeating a lick hundreds of times I won't feel like an overly obsessed crazy person! ;-)

    By the way you know what really bugs me? Once I've repeated a lick so many times that it emerges intuitively in my soloing, I have a tendency of playing that lick in every solo up to the point that even I am thinking oh no, not that one again! :-)

    WillieBillDaCostaWilliamsBucowim
  • wimwim ChicagoModerator Barault #503 replica
    edited November 2021 Posts: 1,457

    Hah yes, ain't that the problem! By the time you can play the lick convincingly and spontaneously, you don't even like it much anymore.

    That's why I enjoy just jamming with friends on the balcony more than gigging, you can take risks and try out stuff as opposed to being in "performance mode" for 2 hours straight.

    BucoWillieCarlo GentenaarMichaelHorowitzDjangheureuxBonesBillDaCostaWilliams
  • Posts: 4,777

    That's a good problem to have. And it takes a minimal displacement so the listener will never notice the repeat. Well most likely the listener won't notice the exact same lick in two different tunes. As my own improvising is becoming more solid, (not there quiet yet but can see it approaching) I'm finding I'm enjoying more the groove and the harmony feel rather than any particular lick or a phrase.

    Every note wants to go somewhere-Kurt Rosenwinkel
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