Some basic questions

diwa130

Thank You to all of you. You have clarified my questions. I have another one if you don't mind. Are these guitars loud enough to cut through a piano ? That's a very practical question. I play in a duo piano/guitar. The piano it's a full size piano. I use my Gibson ES335 with a small Fender tube amp and obvioulsy I don't have any issues. But I tried to use my acoustic and classic guitar without amp and no way, the piano is a killer. So I wonder if a Gipsy Guitar has the volume and projection to be used in a totally acoustic setup with a piano. I am not talking about a gig, but just rehearsal sessions in a living room.

vanmalmsteen

Gypsy guitars are all about volume and projection! They were designed to compete with loud blaring horns and piano. That was the whole point, the necessity to design an instrument that could be heard in the new style of music of the time(Jazz). Over in America they came up with the idea of the arch top guitar something that would be competitive with all the blaring loud instruments. May I prefer the bite and volume of a gypsy jazz guitar any day. In the affordable realm, I hear the Eastman Django guitar it’s quite loud. I have several Altamira, at least one of them is obnoxiously loud.

https://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/comment/101596#Comment_101596

https://www.djangobooks.com/forum/discussion/comment/101596#Comment_101596

Danggg was trying to quote your post but double quoted mine! Now where is that darn Unquote button🤬

Buco

Are these guitars loud enough to cut through a piano ?

I jammed once with a piano player and a singer. It was exactly that, a living room session with an upright. I never once thought my guitar was completely overpowered by a piano. I actually held back a little because I didn't want to be obnoxiously loud and I know I could've gotten more volume out of it. The room was pretty lively sounding though so that helped too.

PS that was a fun jam now that I remembered it...

Russell Letson

Playing with a keyboardist can be challenging in several ways, but those issues can be addressed by the keyboard player. It's not just volume (solution: pianist backs off a bit) but the harmonic space occupied by the piano. Those ten fingers can hit a lot of notes simultaneously and quite fast, and a really good accompanying player will make a point of not overwhelming a soloist or the rest of the band. This principle applies to every member of an ensemble**, but the pianist has double the resources: volume and number of notes available. Robert Redd, the pianist who has taught at Augusta Swing Week for years, is beloved not only because he's a really nice guy but because he's a great and generous accompanist, never stepping on anyone's solo or overwhelming the singer.

As for the kind of guitar--I'll reiterate my point that ears and hands determine what works, and while purists might insist on Guitar Formula X, a survey of what has actually been made to work will reveal a surprising range of solutions. And BTW, the Godin 5th Avenue electric I heard a while back had a very convincing Charlie Christian voice, though the acoustic versions I've played were less satisfying. My Loar LH-600 has the bark plus enough detail for chord-melody--though my Eastman 805 is a much more refined instrument and the one I take out most of the time. But then, I'm playing rhythm with bop-centric straight-ahead guys, which calls for a rather different voice. (Though one night I had a Dunn Stardust with a BigTone that worked pretty well in that setting.)

**Ever come across a sax or harmonica player who won't back off during a solo or vocal passage?

wim

The guitars are loud enough to play with a piano, yeah. Playing with a pianist is hard, but not because of volume! They can take up a lot of the sonic spectrum with these beautiful tall chords, stuff which sounds great when they're playing in a trio with bassist and drummer, but it doesn't leave a lot of space for guitarists to do something interesting. Actually that is not a problem specific to piano itself, you could have the same problem with a rhythm guitarist if they are putting too many ninths, thirteenths, etc into their chord voicing choices.

Most rhythm guitarists know just to use simple chords for comping, leaving the color notes for the soloist, but I think pianists aren't accustomed to playing like that - or they just don't enjoy playing like that (actually it's probably boring for them). Jazz pianists may also put a lot of syncopation which muddies where the bar lines and changes are in a way that, I think, is detrimental to the GJ style. If you don't have la pompe, or something approximating it, you are straying a lot from the foundations of this music.

I think it can work really well if the keys can play in a "stride" style, which is sounding a bit like bass + la pompe. If they don't want to play rhythm that, you may want to add a second guitarist or a drummer. I'll post an example below of Johan Dupont who is good at this ("Rire avec Charlie" is an album of guitar + violin + piano trio that still sounds like straight up gypsy jazz).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUMwiZ6sRkg

Buco

Maybe I got lucky with this pianist but I never felt or heard anything awkward while we played. On the contrary, it was one of the funnest jams I've ever had. The other two said that it was a lot of fun and we actually talked about making it a thing just before the virus. This guy is a top notch pianist though. Mostly plays Latin styles but also jazz and he's French so he's somewhat familiar with GJ.

Oh yeah, Wim, i sent him Rire avec Charlie and he liked it a lot.

MikeK

I took a theory lesson once with a music teacher friend of mine who spent the entire session on the piano, while I sat by him using my Altamira M-01D, unplugged. We discussed some ideas for various GJ passages, then played them together, and I remember being surprised that there was a nice balance between the instruments. At the end, just for fun, we played All The Things You Are, with some nice back & forth and some enjoyable stretching out. I thought there was a very nice balance of the volumes of the 2 instruments on that as well. Kind of like Buco, I remember thinking how it would be nice to have the piano at some of my gigs, but didnt want to deal with the hassle of space limitations, etc.

scot

Just for a bit of perspective, this is an unmanipulated photograph of Django's two sons playing together. Lousson, on the right, was the guitarist who could play most like Django. I also have a picture around here somewhere where Babik is playing what appears to be a Fender Jaguar.

Russell Letson

For piano-guitar-bass interactions, try John Pizzarelli's trio. Or, for that matter, their model and inspiration, the Nat Cole Trio.

scot

One easy, general way to describe the different characteristics of various kinds of guitars: a Martin style flat-top has a fast attack and a slow decay, an archtop has a slow attack and a fast decay. A Selmer style has a fast attack and a fast decay and maybe a bit more amplitude, but only if you attack the strings a certain way. A flat-top can be used for certain kinds of music associated with "gypsy jazz", waltz playing for example, but it really does not work if you want to play in the more modern style.

It isn't hard to make a guitar with the characteristic Selmer sound. A preloaded soundboard, a fairly long scale of 64-67cm, movable bridge/high action/tailpiece, and an Argentine type light gauge sting will do it - factories somewhere are cranking them right on out, and over the last 25 years a really amazing number of luthiers are building them. But as with any guitar, the characteristic sound isn't all there is to it - there is always that last 10-15% that's so hard (and expensive) to get. Good luck!