Almost gypsy picking

Charles Meadows

So after a year or so I am happy to report that I have been able to MOSTLY adopt gypsy picking. There's no doubt this sounds better. But I still find myself cheating on occasion (inserting an initial upstroke) where repeated downs feel unnatural. Not often though. What's the consensus here on occasionally cheating? I know the old school players like Stochelo and Angelo grew up with this style and likely never deviate from it. What about the new guys like Sebastien Giniaux, Gonzalo, Joscho etc? Do they occasionally cheat when it makes for better flow and less tension? Just curious.

Jazzaferri

Stochelo does start some phrases with upstrokes..I have not observed him changing strings with an upstroke though...

Charles Meadows

Stochelo I assume grew up playing only gypsy style I assume. Since I grew up playing alternate that wants to creep in some places. I have gone to 95% gypsy style when playing this stuff. But there are times when adding an extra downstroke seems to lead to tension. I wonder if in these cases this "forcing" is detrimental. I'm interested to see how some of the newer guys (or guys here!) do it, since many of them likely learned to play with some alternate picking as well.

adrian

Yes, the new-school guys definitely deviate from gypsy picking in certain situations -- certain licks and certain heads. For example, Gonzalo's tune "Gonzalogy" uses alternate picking; see 0:33 in this video:



Another example is this Benoit Convert lick (see the E7 lick I've annotated at 2:34):

http://www.soundslice.com/tabs/8962/

Jon

I prefer the old school sound, so I'd say if rest stroke picking feels tense then you need to do more work on it...yes, even more But if you like the sound of the modern guys, there's a bit more room to move. Every compromise you make, though, is not just a compromise of technique, it's a compromise of tone.

Also, be aware that rest stroke technique does to some degree determine your vocabulary. Maybe if something seems just obviously poorly suited to it, then that thing is not the sort of thing that the old school guys would play, and so another technique may be appropriate, although, as I said, you won't be getting that sound anymore.

I've been working on my rest stroke for about five years now. I play music for a living, and get lots of practice in, but I still have difficulties with my right hand on particular things. For the sound I'm after though, there is simply no substitute, so I'm sticking with it. Besides, there are countless videos of people doing it flawlessly at breakneck tempos, so it's definitely possible. Remember, they are people just like you and me - they've just worked at it harder and for more time. Everything they do is possible for us also - there's 0% magic.

hammy

I have been watching Sebastien Giniaux on You Tube and it appears that he uses what I call Benson picking. Does any one know of other players who "turn the pick around"?

Al Watsky

Hammy
Many of the "modern" Jazz guys and girls hold the pick perpendicular to the string. It has a richer sound and lessens pick drag. Its really more of an electric guitar technique because its not as loud a stroke as the flat pick method. It does result in decreased drag and a more fluid line especially at faster tempos. Pat Metheny uses the perpendicular method which I call a stylus approach. Most folks I've talked to prefer it because they hate the sound of the attack they get when playing with the pick parallel to the string.
Its faster but not as loud, but does result in a more dulcet tone. More low midrange on attack. It tends to push the string down twords the face of the guitar before release , which is a preferable release point for tone when using a plectrum.
The rest stroke with a pick will achieve similar results tonally and with even more volume but sacrificing velocity. L-)

dennis

sebastien has such huge hands that it feels more natural to have the angle of his pick turned around, i really like the tone of that way of playing!

as for guys like stochelo, angelo etc... it's hard to say but i dont think any of them are aware of what they're doing, they just sort of know that they need to get volume from the guitar, and that downstrokes are the best way to achieve that, and they also notice that their uncles/cousins play with their hand floating with an arched wrist, but i dont think there's a "gypsy picking school", i've seen so many variations to the technique among them. They're really left to their own devices to figure out technique... it just so happens that stochelo and angelo don't deviate too much from that technique. i talked about it in another thread.. mozes , stochelo's brother for example, will use a few alternate picking ideas here and there

Charles Meadows

Great post Dennis. I've always thought Sebastein had an odd looking grip. He looks like a tall guy - and boy does his playing just look effortless. So does he really pick perpendicular - or just at a bit of an angle?