importance of adding "color" notes to arpeggios

anthon_74 · March 2013

Hi there,

Over the past month I have been practicing long hours with the specific goal of being extremely proficient at basic arpeggio playing over as many songs changes as possible so they become second nature to my fingers.
Now, up until a few days ago, my primary focus has been basic major or minor arpeggios (no 7ths etc).
For the past few days, however, I've been trying to add dominant 7ths to the mix, which brings me to my question - how important is it to ferociously practice color notes in your basic straight forward arpeggio practice ?

I'm assuming VERY, as stephan wremble's book has an entire section showing you every arpeggio with colors that you can think of.

That said, I'm curious, specifically to those who have "broken through" in the style, how much time you've spent perfecting arps with color notes added, as opposed to simply working on phrases and licks over the mastered basic triad arps.

Thanks!

Anthony

Hemert · March 2013

Stochelo has never practiced any arpeggio. Mozes Rosenberg not one arpeggio, Paulus Schafer no arpeggios. I play a lot like Stochelo (quite a bit slower though

and I also have never practiced an arpeggio. Also on violin not one arpeggio. Also no scales at all. Only licks, phrases and ideas...really that's all you need.

That is not to say they cannot play arpeggios. If the arpeggio happens to be in a Django solo or some other lick you'll learn it automatically, but you know...in a musical way!

anthon_74 · March 2013

How, then did you, and/or stochello learn how to "not get lost" in the changes ?

I find licks and phrases to be utterly useless if I don't know when or where to play them, which is shy I'm studying the arpeggios, so my fingers begin to unconsciously know where to go when following the changes of a song.
what other way is there ? Maybe it's because I wasn't trained to see the guitar like a collection of chord shapes, but rather a pentatonic scale and BAM !
I just personally don't see another way to really know where the shapes are and how to find them quickly.

Anthony

Hemert · March 2013

Well, I don't get lost in the changes because I know a couple - and mostly many - "solutions" per chord or rather per chord sequence. If you transcribe solos and isolate licks and practice them in multiple keys your brains will start to apply them to changes automatically after some time. This process - if practiced daily for at least one hour - will take about 2 to 3 years before you start to sound good.

All transcriptions in the Rosenberg Academy are already broken down in licks. Stochelo also shows in the "improvisation" course how to practice improvising with the licks. This is exactly how he did things and many other top players as well.

If you listen to Diknu Schneeberger, Gismo Graf or Olli Sikkeli you think it is a coincidence they play many of Stochelo's licks?

AmundLauritzen · March 2013

What Hemert said.

I think it is in fact the best route for a music that is so specific in vocabulary as gypsy jazz. There is freedom, but only so many liberties can be taken before the playing sounds like it doesn't belong.
I play bebop too, and in that music vocabulary is key important but it is nowhere as stylistically restricted as gypsy jazz. That's a context where practicing arpeggios with extensions makes more sense.

But practicing arpeggios in gypsy jazz won't hurt you. It is excellent ear training and if done right and if you pay attention, a great way to learn to locate intervals and chord tones on the neck.

But if you are to consider your practice schedule, there is only so much time to spend in a day. You'd be better off learning solos and licks. When you know enough solos and licks, you can survive in a jam setting. That's step one. It will build a foundation for you to add to.
That's when developing your own style with theoretical constructs can be beneficial use of time. Because when you then learn an arpeggio, you can recognize it in what you can already play. Because you already know how to make music with it, it won't be a dry exercise to you but you'll actually KNOW what to do with the arpeggio.

I hope that makes sense

dennis · March 2013

i think the most important thing is to train your ears!!! Figure out as much music as you can by ear, it's the hardest path, but the best one!

Hemert · March 2013

Yeah, ear training can't hurt but even more important: work on your timing from day one. Too many players that play slightly rushed, it doesn't really matter what you play in that case, it just won't sound good. Best way to work on timing is start practicing everything with a metronome on beats 2 and 4. Try to play WITH the metronome and not on top of it. If you change the beat around you'll know your timing is off. Start slowly and work your way up to 130BPM (so that's 260 BPM). From 140BPM you can start working with the metronome on beats 1 and 3.

Lango-Django · March 2013

I kind of compare the process of learning music to learning a second language. Many of you European guys had the opportunity to learn GJ as your 'first' musical language, while most of us North American players are coming at this from a rock or bluegrass kind of background, so its quite natural for us to approach it in a different way.

Many of us here have struggled learning licks and solos from recordings and then, when we went to play our own solo, found out that these didn't real get us anywhere. So therefore we tried to learn things in a more systematic, general way. Many of us have found books like "Gypsy Picking" and Daniel Givone's method very helpful... I'm sure Stochelo never once needed to look at books like that, but we did!

It's sort of like me: I learned to speak perfect English without ever studying methods with verb tenses, preposition usage or anything like that. But for me to learn French, far from France or Quebec, ooh la la...! I suddenly found out I needed all those books and methods!

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Having said that, the Rosenberg philosophy of using licks as a learning tool sounds very sensible to me... so, okay, Hemert, you got a sale! First thing when I get back home from Spain, I'm gonna sign up.

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Jazzaferri · March 2013

I hVe found that if I know the phrase well enough to sing it from memeory I can play iit and aftera few months of playing the phrase it will start coming put in my playing.

I also find it amazing that after months of using a metronome the metronome gets more accurate although I think that where the strong beat is depends on where one is on the learning curve and what type of song one is playing.