Fapy unleashed

JazzDawg

I think that quote has to be taken in context. Of course, where Django was heading was away from the approach that Lang was taking. That's probably the reason for the quote, and doesn't alter my opinion that the tunes I mentioned share a certain feeling.

I don't mean to say that Django was heavily influenced by Lang, but if you listen to those tunes, and think of the times - the guitar was turning from just a rhythm instrument to one capable of playing solos. That's where I think the influence was. not so much the style.

Elliot

I don't like Eddie Lang, he wasn't dogshit next to Django and an up-to-no-good flatpicker , but I definitely hear a similarity in phrasing as well... Everyone denies their biggest influences! I'd love to say it was the other way around, but it wasn't, Lang was already releasing singles just when Django was relearning how to play after the accident.

This has been something that has been often discussed, basically whether history is created by great men or great movements, and which creates which, which may be the chicken/egg thing, I'm not sure, but I'm sure we can all agree that not only was he a major rooster but Django sure cooked up the tastiest omelet, niglot meat and all. After all, there's nothing to compare to a rooster egg, dyt?

Even if he could only flip the pan with 3 fingers.

mr arp

Elliot wrote:

I don't like Eddie Lang, he wasn't dogshit next to Django and an up-to-no-good flatpicker , but I definitely hear a similarity in phrasing as well... Everyone denies their biggest influences! I'd love to say it was the other way around, but it wasn't, Lang was already releasing singles just when Django was relearning how to play after the accident.

Not so fast. Both Eddie Lang and Django were greatly inspired by the jazz horn players of the day especially Louis Armstrong. Eddie Lang's lead lines were absolutely hornlike, even Howard Alden believes this as do many jazz historians. Just because Eddie Lang recorded singles before Django does not mean that Django was copying Eddie Lang or that Lang was his biggest influence. That's another chicken and egg thing and far too simplistic. I agree with Fred Sharp that the biggest American influences on Django were Armstrong, Hawkins, etc. These were also the biggest influences on Eddie Lang. I contend that they were both predominantly influenced by the jazz horn players in their lead playing versus each other. That's the similarity that they share, and this fits in nicely with Delaunay's remark. Any early phrasing similarities (and I'm not sure that I hear them to the extent you do) MAY be derived from their individual attempts at emulating the great horn men of the day, not necessarily each other. You cannot deny that this is a very strong possibility, and one that I think is being overlooked. That's why I posted the Fred Sharp comments...the man knew and played with many of these early horn men and understood the early jazz scene.

Elliot

Arp, I wouldn't 'deny' anything you've just stated, after all trumpets, sax, etc were the currently most popular solo instruments and stayed that way, in fact I don't see how could it be otherwise. Even Billy Holiday sounded like a trumpet at times.

However, applying arguments people are not making seems to be a habit with you, along with finding irrelevant exceptions that you are only using to contradict everything I've said:

Here we go again: Would he have sounded the same or different with all fingers firing? Who the heck knows and why should we care?

Then why if you don't care are you participating in this thread in the first place?

Ipso Facto as yet another member posted. I would still listen endlessly to Django's recorded work if it sounded the same had he had 18 fingers or played only with his big toe.... His music is real enough for me and continues to blow me away at every level .

Glad you like him, but this thread was not titled "Arp likes Django."

There's certainly a well deserved aura surrounding Django but no myth: he didn't make a deal with the devil, as Robert Johnson supposedly did, for example. And Django's recording history spans 20+ years versus the comparatively small collection of Robert Johnson (1936-37, I believe). I can see and understand the myth surrounding Robert Johnson as a result, but not Django, so it was a poor comparison to cite in your earlier post.

Please pick up a book on mythology. You are just desperately grasping at straws. This has nothing to do with the Robert Johnson devil nonsense.

There is plenty of recorded history about Django both in sound and print that does not permit mythology. Aura yes, mythology no.

Wow, you think a myth is a false story like how the 'myth of the free market' would be used, don't you?! You are simply gainsaying me without a shred of any knowledge about mythology! I'm embarrassed for you! As for the rest about Hendrix, you again go way off the point to contradict me line for line. They played differently,which is irrelevant and it is YOUR OPINION that Django did it with more complexity. Again, and please try to let this soak in - a deformity does not a genre make. And once yet again I never said ANYTHING about Django's acknowledgement in the world, but that's just par for the course evidently, Arp.

Now, back off on your BS because I don't want to see this thread locked because of you - or me, and I promise I'll avoid trying to have an intelligent discussion here in the future, okay?

mr arp

Now, now....let's not get grumpy. This has been a wonderful and illuminating thread and while it' s clear that we disagree on many points, this forum is best when good debate is in play. It's been pointed out by others that you tend to throw out some heat in your posts so be prepared to receive a little in return now and then. For the record, your recent rebuttals to my earlier post are bunk. No hard feelings.

A few of your posts are thought provoking and sometimes even push the discussion forward, despite their delivery. You brought up the Eddie Lang reference, for example, and it was explored in a most thoughtful way by all. And FWIW, I did acknowledge that we both share a love for Fapy's playing, did I not? I'll choose not to explore the Dead, however, as you have referenced now in several posts in this thread....slightly off topic, yes? It's all good Elliot, relax and enjoy .

scot

Not so fast, either of you! The fundamentals of Django's style owe as much or more to the accordion players of his youth as they owe to any horn players or Eddie Lang. Arpeggios (which we all know form such a big part of Django's style) are almost always phrased differently than the scalar lines favored by the early horn players, who rarely exploited arpeggios. The great (pre-swing) accordionists of the 20s and 30s like Emile Vacher relied heavily on the use of arpeggios in their compositions and improvisations. This reliance on arpeggios in turn probably developed as it did to take best advantage of the peculiar B/C keyboard layout of the accordion used in Paris. There is no doubt of the major influence these accordion players had on Django. He did not copy them, but he did integrate many accordionistic motifs into his early playing.

I accept that later on Django's playing drew more from American jazz greats, though I'd argue that it never lost it's romantic Gallic character. It's that Parisian romance that has kept those records selling all these years. When I think of a guitarist who played and phrased like a horn player, I think of Jimmy Raney who could hardly be less like Django. Raney was a strong player but no one would call his playing romantic... I don't think Eddie Lang was in Django's class as a technician or an improviser, but if you watch him with Bing Crosby in the clip where they're playing "Please" - his playing has plenty of charm, too. Francis Moerman always referred to Django's music (and that of the Ferrets) as "jazz gitano-parisien" which pretty well sums it up. And back to Fapy, his playing is romantic, and I think that's why he's one of the only modern players in this style (Koen de Kauter is another) that appeal to women.

Mr Arp, you will find that Elliot (bless his heart) never ever backs down on anything he says and takes most disagreement pretty personally. Which is OK, it's all just talk anyway.

steven_eire

scot wrote:

I accept that later on Django's playing drew more from American jazz greats, though I'd argue that it never lost it's romantic Gallic character. It's that Parisian romance that has kept those records selling all these years.

Good point, The argument could be made that Django's Parisian identity had a greater influence on his playing than his Gypsy heritage. If he had of settled in another major european city could his playing have evolved to anything close to what it did without absorbing the many influences he was exposed to in Paris? ( Italian accordionists, american expat jazz musicians etc. ) As an itinerant he would have surely been exposed to a variety of music on his travels, but he spent much of his key years of development in Paris.

Teddy Dupont

steven_eire wrote:

The argument could be made that Django's Parisian identity had a greater influence on his playing than his Gypsy heritage.

I am sure of it. His Parisian environment was a significant musical influence on him particularly, as Scot says, during the early years. Gypsies have always been far more influenced by the music of the country in which they reside than they have by any supposed common gypsy musical heritage.

mr arp

scot wrote:

There is no doubt of the major influence these accordion players had on Django. He did not copy them, but he did integrate many accordionistic motifs into his early playing.

Could not agree more with the influence of the accordion in Django's playing style. He cut his teeth in the '20's playing waltzes in the bal musettes with some of the reportedly best accordion players around. I've always felt this was a huge factor in his early development when I initially heard Django's blistering chromatic runs in Nuages in particular (and elsewhere ). Can't forget about those glissando chromatic runs up and down the keyboard which are also staples of accordion playing in many musical styles. It's an embellishment, easy to do on the accordion and often overused but if done with taste can add dramatic flair and intensity to a melody or improvised line. Django used it to great effect on guitar.

scot wrote:

Arpeggios (which we all know form such a big part of Django's style) are almost always phrased differently than the scalar lines favored by the early horn players, who rarely exploited arpeggios.

I don't think this is quite right. It's true that arpeggio lines are phrased differently than scalar lines as you say, but the early horn players actually relied much more heavily on arpeggios than scalar playing. Scalar playing (and later chromaticism) came into play more dominantly as jazz harmonies began to grow and mature. Arpeggio ("arp") playing is in fact what makes many of Louis Armstrong' s early solos so identifiable and challenging on trumpet. (Arps don't lay out well on the trumpet or trombone. They lay out great on the saxophone and clarinet.) The easiest way to negotiate a chord change is to simply outline it with an arpeggio so that's what the early players did. Arpeggio playing was abundant back in early jazz and who knows, perhaps it helped Django relate even better to what he heard on the other side of the pond given his familiarity with arpeggios by way of the accordion. Or maybe it served to reinforce his arpeggio approach on guitar. My guess is that Django was really drawn to the raw energy and emotional melodic playing of the early jazzers, not to mention the swing. But the arpeggio playing of the early jazz horn players cannot be denied and probably influenced Django as well.

Here's an early clip from 1926 that clearly demonstrates heavy arpeggiated playing from Louis Armstrong's Hot Five right from the first notes. You can also start his solo at 1:40 where the arps really kick in all the way to the end. You'll hear arpeggios all over the place (exploited, if you will) and will instantly hear that many of Louis' widely recognized trademark licks are completely based on arpeggios. Not easy to play as a cornet player, that's why I switched to guitar



Sorry folks, the youtube embedded link does not want to cooperate so here's the direct link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--xy6nxe ... re=related

scot wrote:

Mr Arp, you will find that Elliot (bless his heart) never ever backs down on anything he says and takes most disagreement pretty personally. Which is OK, it's all just talk anyway.

Thank you for the insight. Yes, he's of the sensitive sort when challenged. Pity given the inherent nature of the online forum. All the best to him nonetheless.

stubla

[Scot wrote: Arpeggios (which we all know form such a big part of Django's style) are almost always phrased differently than the scalar lines favored by the early horn players, who rarely exploited arpeggios.]

yes arpeggios form the basis of Djangos EARLY style for sure--but i do think people exaggerate this aspect of Djangos playing.Certainly from 1946 on(after his return from the U.S) Djangos playing is more linear and incorporates many many scale passages--and the Rome sessions too are full of them. The style today relies just as heavily on scale playing as well as the arpeggio stuff.
I do agree that Django was influenced early on by the musette accordion style--i think his love of long triplet passages comes direct from that as they are relatively rare in early Jazz--no doubt though that Armstrong and Coleman Hawkins are Djangos two biggest influences as well as Ellington on the compositional side of things
Stu