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Half diminished and whole tone scale !?

RovelloRovello Marseille / FranceNew
edited February 2006 in Technique Posts: 9
These two scales are used very often in Gypsy Jazz, I know them...but I can't use them in a musical context ! :cry:
I just use the half dimished scale in "Dinah" over the Am (Ab-A-B-C-..)...except that.....NADA !
Any ideas, help ? :wink:
«1

Comments

  • Tom ConwayTom Conway Maui, HawaiiNew
    Posts: 30
    Check out Don Mock's excellent book/CD package titled "Symmetrical Scales Revealed" for clear insight on how to use the whole tone and diminished '1/2 - whole' scales. The book is in tab and regular notation and the musical examples on the CD are great. Don is a world class guitarist and although he's not a gypsy jazzer the concepts are what's important and you'll probably find some fresh approaches here. He also has two other book/CD packages titled "Melodic Minor Revealed" and "Harmonic Minor Revealed" if you are interested.

    Frank Gambale's "Technique Book 1 & 2" w/CD's also clearly explain this stuff in detail for guitarists and feature audio examples.

    Romane's "L'Esprit Manouche" is loaded with a lot of info.

    Another good book is pianist Mark Levine's "Jazz Theory". There's no CD and the music is only in regular notation but the info is very well presented.

    Of course the best way for me personally is transcribing the greats! :idea:

    Good luck,

    TC
  • nwilkinsnwilkins New
    Posts: 431
    sometimes to get a different sound you can briefly play the whole tone scale over a dominant chord. You can also play it descending over a turnaround - a good example of this is on Ninine Garcia's CD, on the tune Shteremen Swing, at around 1:50.
  • RovelloRovello Marseille / FranceNew
    Posts: 9
  • joefjoef Wales, U.K.New
    Posts: 35
    nwilkins wrote:
    sometimes to get a different sound you can briefly play the whole tone scale over a dominant chord.

    Yes, that works because then you'll have a flat 5th and a sharp 5th . You're playing the whole tone that starts on the dominant, by the way, not the tonic ;-) . So in the key of G, over a D7 you'd start on a D. You can also add in the normal 5th as a passing note.

    Billets Doux has an example of this.

    regards
    Joe
  • dennisdennis Montreal, QuebecModerator
    Posts: 2,116
    i think you might be confusing half-diminished scale with diminished scale....

    diminished scale is a combination of semitone and whole tone like your example: Ab A B C D Eb F Gb

    half-diminished scale, i dont think i've haerd of that one... i could be mistaken and would welcome any corrections....

    anyway the diminished scale isn't used to often in gypsy jazz or at least not in its entirety.... there are some fragments of the scale that are frequently used (ie A Bb C over A7) but they could just as well be part of a number of different scales (ie melodic minor, or plain natural minor)


    the dutch love to use a chord that is derived from the diminished scale though (you can hear it for example on Les Yeux Noirs from the rosenberg live at samois CD):
    e-6
    b-7
    g-6
    d-5
    a-
    e-
    

    it's an A13b9

    now i didn't want to unleash this one but here's a diminished phrase used by adrien moignard (be careful, in the wrong hands, it can have devastating effects, use with caution):

    it works over B7, when i stole this lick he used it on some of these days... notice how it overlaps to the Em chord (which i didn't notate)... try transposing it... it could work on dark eyes, what is this thing called love, minor swing, etc....
  • thripthrip London, UKProdigy
    Posts: 153
    Wouldn't a half-diminished scale be the seventh mode of the major scale? The VII chord being a m7b5 (or half diminished). For example, when playing Bm7b5, you could play a C major scale starting a half step below?
  • bbwood_98bbwood_98 Brooklyn, NyProdigy Vladimir music! Les Effes. . Its the best!
    Posts: 452
    Hi all,
    So thrip- I always called that a lochrian mode (umm . . .) bcdefgab, 1/2 w w 1/2 w w w. It's a little off. I belive the original poster was after a diminished scale starting on a 1/2 step over a chord, and whole diminished would start on a whole step. it's kinda a weird way to think . . . .
    I love using these over dom. or minors!
    B.
    Ps. dennis- great lick! Good steal![/code]
  • thripthrip London, UKProdigy
    Posts: 153
    bbwood_98 wrote:
    So thrip- I always called that a lochrian mode

    Or the Locrian, depending on whether you have Scottish ancestry or not :D
    bbwood_98 wrote:
    I belive the original poster was after a diminished scale starting on a 1/2 step over a chord, and whole diminished would start on a whole step..

    Yes, sorry, I was just being pedantic...
  • bbwood_98bbwood_98 Brooklyn, NyProdigy Vladimir music! Les Effes. . Its the best!
    Posts: 452
    Yeah thrip!
    Sorry- I can't speellll!
    Cheers,
    B.
    Ps. that lick of adrians is killing me!
    PPs. dennis- I can't get the vids to work from your website
  • bbwood_98bbwood_98 Brooklyn, NyProdigy Vladimir music! Les Effes. . Its the best!
    Posts: 452
    Wow!
    My wife (A fantastic jazz singer) pointed out the following- starting on your bmin(b5)-
    Playing f lydian mode over this (f-g-a-b-c-d-e-f)
    Works well . . then the next (typically anyway) chord should be E7 (sometimes altered, but) over which you could play E mixolydian (E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D-E) then you would be going to the "tonic" minor chord (usually in our style a m6) of A over which you could play a D Mixolydian idea! (d-e-F#-g-a-b-c).
    Cool . . .
    now i just have to figure out all the alterations that are possible, and then transpose this into every key!
    Cheers,
    B.
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