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Selmer Guitar Sound Break-up

Hi there,

One of the things I like most about the Selmer-Maccaferri design is the way the sound kind of distorts or breaks up in a similar fashion to a tube amp when played hard, it's very noticable on Django recordings and some of Bireli's recordings. What I've been curious to know is, what quality is it in the guitar's construction that makes this happen? I've heard some luthiers say that it is because of the guitar's pliage, but I have heard that it's not necessary. Also I know that on some guitars it's more noticeable than others; recently I've been interested in buying a Favino style guitar because of the thicker bassier tone, but I was wondering if the Favino has this quality or whether it's something exclusive to a Selmer. Any help would be welcome!
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Comments

  • When I played through MB's collection of older GJ guitars my memory is that most of them had that quality to some degree or another. I think there was a FAvino in the group but you would have to check with MB to be sure.

    My Dunn does it if played really hard.
    The Magic really starts to happen when you can play it with your eyes closed
  • AhabAhab GB✭✭
    Posts: 88
    Sorry by MB do you mean Michael Bauer?
  • Michael BauerMichael Bauer Chicago, ILProdigy Selmers, Busatos and more…oh my!
    Posts: 1,002
    Ahab--

    I'm guessing that he does mean me. And you are absolutely right about that "break-up" being an intrinsic part of the Selmer sound, at least with the two I own, and the other half-dozen that I've played. I always described it as a kind of sizzle, almost like frying an egg. Passacaglia was visiting yesterday, and I was explaining that sound, and he wondered if it might be set up. But it isn't, it's built right in, and it is most evident with really strong right hands. Where Busatos stay clean and almost bell-like, Selmers dirty up. It would take a luthier to explain it properly, and I am not one, but it's absolutely there.

    Favinos seem to be all over the map. The classic sound has that nasal honk, but I've never thought of it as ever getting dirty. But other Favinos seem to lack the honky quality completely. I'll try to play the Macias hard today, although I have a pretty poor right hand for lead work. I'll let you know if I can get it to "break up" at all.

    Michael
    I've never been a guitar player, but I've played one on stage.
  • AhabAhab GB✭✭
    Posts: 88
    Thanks! I once played a Moustache guitar once, and it was the first time I encountered this effect in the flesh as it were, and I thought "woah! this is really cool!", as it's just not something you'd associate with an acoustic guitar.

    My Dad is a sax player, and the range of tone and sound that you can get from a Selmer guitar is very similar to a saxophone; it's one reason, in my opinion, that guitarists who play these kind of guitars develop their own "tone" like a saxophone player would.
  • Yes i did maen the good mr. Bauer

    He ws ever s o gracious to let me play through his collection....

    Couple of his guitars broke up a lot others less so. I think i must have played the bustato but dont recall its sound. I had a Lot to digest in a short time
    The Magic really starts to happen when you can play it with your eyes closed
  • noodlenotnoodlenot ✭✭✭
    Posts: 388
    as i´ve never played a real selmer (or any other vintage GJ guitar), i thought that sound was actually an old amp being overdriven... always learning.
  • If my poor old memory is correct :shock: it has something to do with how responsive the top is

    I hope one of the luthiers will jump in on this one. I'd really like to know for sure too
    The Magic really starts to happen when you can play it with your eyes closed
  • noodlenotnoodlenot ✭✭✭
    Posts: 388
    OK... are we talking here about an added "coloration" to the sound when pushing the strings harder, like if a bunch of new harmonics came in and added some extra spark that wasn´t as apparent when not pushing that hard - but still somehow rounded (or tube-ish) - or something like the sound starting to break-up and the distortion staring to go into "rough" territory? couldn´t this be an headroom "problem" (or feature)?
    if a top wood is very light, you end up with the desired stiffness at a lesser weight, which will - very broadly speaking - make the guitar more responsive (less energy needed to drive the top) and more explosive (shorter attack) but also with less headroom (sound starts breaking up at lower "input" levels) - this is kind of a price you have to pay for a responsive guitar. as european spruce varies a lot in density (i´ve measured from 0.34 to 0.45 specific gravity in my samples!), if Selmer made the tops to some target thickness (i´m just thinking out loud here, i don´t know how they worked and i haven´t touched a vintage GJ guitar - but i´m repeating myself) they could end up with all kinds of results regarding the weight/stiffness of the top and its ability to withstand an heavy playing hand. Of course they could go so far as to "tune" the top to be near the point of breaking up when playing hard, but not quite so and try to retain some of the mojo without letting the ship sink. hard to pull this out consistently and a far stretch, i´d guess, but what will the most experienced amongst you say? do selmers consistently behave like this?

    thanks,
    Miguel.

    edit: about the pliage (as someone mentioned), like an arching of the top, it will end up making the top stiffer for the same mass so i guess it could help in using lighter tops.
  • Jeff MooreJeff Moore Minneapolis✭✭✭✭ Lebreton 2
    Posts: 476
    The energy of vibrating strings is all any guitar has for input. If you build a light (but strong) enough top, even this small input can overdrive a top, as noodlenot says. The bracing in the Maccaferri design (ladder bracing) uses the least wood to achieve the needed strength which leaves the top better able to maximize output. Other ladder braced guitars tend to break up more than the more common X braced (Martin) types.
    I'm sure its more complex than that, but that's my idea.
    I also think what we call "tone" in regards to these guitars, isn't just a product of wood choices and care and knowledge in construction, but is also just built into the design - (better strength to weight ratio), therefore; efficiency in translating the string energy - more output of "information" from the crazy gyrations of the strings.
    For the same reason, if you get more "information" out of the string, you get more changes as a result of how you play the string. Also if you get more information out of a string, you can use a lighter string (nice).
    These guitars don't just sound more like strats, when hammered, than an X braced guitar, I think they also sound more like classical guitars when played that way.
    "We need a radical redistribution of wealth and power" MLK
  • thomasbaggermanthomasbaggerman The NetherlandsNew
    Posts: 10
    Hi Guys,

    I hope I'm at the right place for my question here. I have bought a Dupont MD-50 in Paris in 2011. Bought the guitar because it really stood out against all the other guitars I've tried in alle the shops I could find in Paris. It really stood out when it comes to playability, looks, but most of all the deepness of the internal reverb, the responsiveness and good projection. Other MD-50's were much more closed and dull. With this one the sound was wide open and ringing inside aswell with a nice projection. I fell in love with the way it crunches and the big dynamic range it has.

    So i have a very repsonsive guitar. I think that's because the guitar is very light (light top) and has a light brigde too. I've raised the action a litlle so I can play really loud without buzzing (it was a bit too low before). So acousticly it sounds amazing.

    The thing is I'm having serious feedback issues on stage. I use a Audiotechnica pro 70 like gonzalo adrien, etc with a AER 100 watt Dynamo amp. I mount it inside the guitar. The problem occurs:
    - even when the volume is low (when Im close to the amp, like one or two meters)
    - it doesnt occur when Im really far away from the amp (when it stands behind me at like 4/5 meters)
    - sometimes the low cut option on the AT pro 70 reduces feedback, in other cases cutting the low will increase the feedback (havent found any logics in there)
    - when my amp gets connected with a mixing table and PA the feedback problem gets worse

    Offcourse I've tried big tone pickups and those really kill the charateristics, which are the reason I bought the guitar in the firstplace. They make the guitar sound dead and banjo like. The Dupont one, which they sent me later actually gave me feedback issues!! (sent it back got money back) and the other bigtone bridge Eimers made for me later, was the worst and biggest heavy brigde I've ever seen totally killed the sound. So thats why I dismissed that and stayed with the mics and all.

    When I'm on a big stage with good distance between my guitar and amp, and a low stage volume, the sound is really great. Sometimes with an addes mic in front of the guitar. The secret for me now is to keep the stage sound really as soft as possible. But this doesnt work in smaller noisier venues.

    example of sound on big stage (stille with little too low action)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f_EC3Xu474

    When I look at other guitarist like Gonzalo or Adrien, I see them use those mics all the time even in small noisy venues and (seem to) have no issues at all. They just have a beautiful acoustic sound. Could this problem have something to do with the high responsiveness of my guitar or the amp I'm using?

    Hope someone here knows more then I do! :)

    Thanks in advance!

    Thomas Baggerman
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