Manouche Guitar - Setup Recommendations?

apwebb

Hi Guys,

I'm coming to terms with my knock-off Dupont MD.

I would greatly appreciate some information on setting up this type of guitar.

Are there recommended specs for setting up a Manouche guitar?

Many thanks,

Andrew

Bob Holo

Troubles in Fauxpont land. Sorry to hear about it. It happens. I hear they're not terrible guitars - so you probably paid about what it's worth. I hope so. But GJ guitars... yep... small market... it's possible to get dinged. It definitely pays to go to one of the known dealers - I think Michael (this site) is the most prolific Dupont dealer if that's what you want.

Anyway - 2.8/2.3mm (bass/treble) action, with ~0.25mm relief (11/1000") and a zero fret that isn't much higher than your #1 fret... like ~0.15mm higher than the #1 fret when the fretboard is under tension... Start at 0.2mm higher and if it feels tense, drop it a little.

That's a pretty standard setup if you have a reasonably traditional Selmer-inspired guitar. That setup is done at 70 degrees Fahrenheit and 50% relative humidity and allows playability within a reasonable range of temp/humidity. YMMV if it's an over-built guitar or the neck angle is odd or if the frets are too uneven to allow a reasonably low setup or if you're coming from fingerstyle or some other ultra-low setup style or if you have a guitar with longer strings / higher neck angle like a Favino. In other words, "YMMV a hell of a lot" if it's an offshore guitar or a specialty guitar or if you're new to GJ and not used to the feel of these guitars.

Also - note - that's a starting point... I've setup GJ guitars that played well and had power as low as 2.5/2.0 with 0.2mm relief, but you have to have good technique and well dressed frets and a reasonably traditionally built guitar to play cleanly with that kind of setup and when the humidity drops, a setup like that will get buzzy quickly. If you have a non-standard technique and play amplified I guess you could go even lower, but you reduce your dynamic range. It's a trade-off at that point.

As for higher... don't stray too much above 3.0/2.5 with 0.3mm relief. Even with a short scale and shallow neck angle, that's plenty of room to play cleanly and with power and you incur playability and intonation complications going too high.

Just general guidelines, but... there you go. I just had a conversation with Josh a few days ago. He recently met a few guys who found GJ setups too high - so I decided to write this note to help with some general guidelines. Anyway, YMMV for many many reasons, so if you take the guitar to a shop where they understand GJ guitars, disregard this note and just talk to them about it. They'll set you up right, particularly if they're able to take a look at the guitar and learn something about your skill level and preferences.

apwebb

Thank you Bob, you are a gentleman!

I stumbled across your YT clip, which was very helpful as well.

apwebb

One further question about adjusting the string height. Does one adjust it by modifying the feet of the bridge or the saddle section of the bridge.

My initial thought was to modify the feet by I want to be 100% sure.

thanks again.

Bob Holo

Welcome to the wonderful world of shims.

If you modify the top of the bridge, you'll change the intonation. notice that the bridge (well, if it's traditional) twists off backward on one side and forward on the other. As you bring the top of the bridge down you do two things. One is to bring all strings forward (as you're working toward the fat part of the bridge) and the other is that you reduce the twist at both ends. (if the bridge top gets too wide it leads to other problems in tonal clarity and odd buzzing / sitar tone.)

Now, granted, these guitars aren't intonated well to begin with… B is sharp, G is flat & etc… but you can make it even worse… and if you try to correct the above problems by trimming wood, you reduce the bridge weight and change the tone of the guitar… maybe for the better… maybe for the worse, but change it you will.

Dig around, you'll find threads by me, by a guy named Josh Hegg, probably by Al Watsky.

apwebb

thanks again Bob.

Ryan Rhea

Great stuff, Bob!

So out of curiosity, how does one adjust action, then, if doing the above can be destructive?

My guitar has a bridge with a saddle. I assume this makes adjustment much easier, no? I'm thinking of attempting to create a winter saddle and a summer saddle. Much like cellists have winter and summer bridges. Does this idea make sense?

RR

Bob Holo

People typically use a bridge that is good at a "normal" humidity and then shim a little as the humidity drops. But, if your guitar has a bridge insert or saddle or whatever, then making a new saddle would be the best way because you're not altering the guitar. Always try to keep things original or at least keep the original things... if you change the nut - keep the old one / or bridge / or tailpiece etc etc etc...

But really, the best way to adjust your guitar's action is to keep it at a healthy humidity by keeping it in the case during unusual months and humidifying or dehumidifying to keep it at a reasonable humidity. It turns the whole concept of "adjustment" on its head, but the best question about adjustment is not "how do I adjust my guitar so it plays the same even though it's (heavily) impacted by the seasons?" but rather: "How do I adjust my guitar's environment so that it is not greatly impacted by the seasons and remains playable and healthy?"

Ask that second question more than you ask the first question and your guitars will sound better, play better and wear better.

It's sort of like the old joke:

- "Doctor, it hurts when I do this, what do I do?"

- "Don't do that."

:-)

Al Watsky

I control the humidity of all the instruments around here.
Either by adding or subtracting humidity.
Then any movement over the seasons is minimized .
I prefer a set up that will allow for some movement.
Which is to say that at times it may be a few .000 higher or lower depending on conditions but the variation doesn't prevent use of the instrument.
Its a balance.
I avoid the summer bridge , winter bridge business if at all possible and in fact none of my personal guitars require that.
Few of my customers either for that matter.
If your one of these "princess and the pea" type players that needs a setup that is balanced on the head of a pin and very low , you quickly find that its preferable to try to develop a bit more hand strength than to chase some Ideal set up that seems to need constant adjustment. Listen to recordings of your self if your unsure of your sound with your "ideal" action. You may not like what the microphone reveals .
Better to play with the slightly higher action than to be constantly adjusting.
Is rare that a "healthy" guitar moves wildly. Unless the guitar is new the movement is slight. New instruments , that is, recently built, with in the first 18 months, sometimes require larger adjustments as do all stringed instruments in those early days . After about a year they should settle and give you a sitting target for your set up.
Err on the side of caution. Don't over shim your bridge. If the guitar is new don't make extreme adjustments until the instrument settles , new builds especially on the low end can move a lot , best to wait for them to finish moving before trying to set the final geometry .
Theres more to a set up than the string height at the 12th fret.
When in doubt consult the most qualified tradesperson in your immediate area.
Set up and feel are a players choice but adjustments are best done by an experienced professional.

JMP

Al: thanks for the good advice. Can you provide a bit more detail regarding your warning: "don't over shim your bridge." What would generally constitute an acceptable level of shim use, and what would be too much?

Ryan Rhea

Thanks, guys. That makes perfect sense. I have a guitar room and a bunch of instruments but the vast majority are electrics, which are much less fussy about humidity than acoustics (and far less vulnerable to damage). I do keep this room at a constant humidity year round, though, using a highly accurate digital cigar humidor hygrometer to measure the RH called the Western Calibur III which gets rave reviews by smoking enthusiasts for accuracy (+/- 1% error for temp and humidity readings). I do not smoke, but I know how important humidity is for cigar enthusiasts and if these guys love it, it's likely a good product. Like you say, Bob, controlling the humidity of your instruments is the best recommendation I can think for anyone who keeps a guitar collection of any size.

In the summertime here in Memphis the HVAC tends to keep the house at a pleasant 45% - 50% without the need for dehumidification. It's hot as hell here in summer so the AC kicks on and off constantly, which keeps humidity in check. However, winter is a whole other matter. I run two small humidifiers in the guitar room (sometimes just one at a time) and have developed a good sense of how to set them to achieve 50% RH in that room despite any given outside temp in winter.

Regardless of all this, I still notice seasonal changes in my instruments. Nothing like what would happen without controlling humidity, but they do move some between winter/spring, summer/fall before settling. My archtop is easy, just a few thumbscrew twists one way or another to counteract the moving top, and you're good to go. Flattops, not so easy.

I couldn't agree more with Al about not being a "princess and the pea" about setups. Doing mostly all my own work on my guitars, I used to be insufferable about every silly little thing. It really sucked the joy out of playing. Years ago I finally got over that and decided to be more flexible and not obsess over every tiny little measurement. It has been very liberating!

RR