Comments

• Heretic In the Pond✭✭✭

  May 2013 Posts: 230

  That's crazy.
• arjr ✭✭✭

  May 2013 Posts: 75

  what makes the rhythm German?
  
  
  
  Angelo
• Djuri New

  May 2013 Posts: 31

  arjr wrote:

  what makes the rhythm German?
  
  
  
  Angelo

  
  ein, zwei, drei - that is
  
• Passacaglia Madison, WI✭✭✭✭

  May 2013 Posts: 1,471

  arjr wrote:

  what makes the rhythm German?
  
  
  
  Angelo

  
  By my ears, a "classic" German pompe is very hard, evenly hard, across all 4 beats. Sometimes a bit of sustain on 1 and 3, so it's almost like an "oom-pa" beat.

  -Paul
  
  pas encore, j'erre toujours.
• arjr ✭✭✭

  May 2013 Posts: 75

  ha......this rhythm sounds no different than other players maybe with a slight variation on the beats, but I don't get why it's called German?
  
  Do ALL the German gypsy jazzers play rhythm in this style?
  
  I don't really care what or why, it's not important to me. It's just
  funny how people categorize certain things.
  
  
  Angelo
• Passacaglia Madison, WI✭✭✭✭

  May 2013 Posts: 1,471

  Well, Angelo, I think Denis Chang's point is well taken. There's no such thing as a "German" school, a "Dutch School," an "Alsacian" school, because there's so much cross-fertilization. When I said "classic," I meant a sort of pure form (that may never have existed, really), a discernible taste.
  
  I do hear a very discernible difference in tendencies..here:
  
  Bireli, Douce Ambiance, from "15"
  
  Rosenberg's, Douce, North Sea Jazz

  -Paul
  
  pas encore, j'erre toujours.
• Jazzaferri Victoria B.C.Moderator Dunn Ultrafox, DuPont MDC20 Gretsch Chet Atkins CG

  May 2013 Posts: 3,707

  Well, I have to say my ears hear a difference......and IMO :shock: it is not insignificant...
  
  If you don't or aren't interested....wellll...
  
  "c'est la vie say the old folks ...it goes to show you never can tell"

  The Magic really starts to happen when you can play it with your eyes closed
• Passacaglia Madison, WI✭✭✭✭

  May 2013 Posts: 1,471

  Sorry for the double post, for some weird reason, every now and then the "edit" button disappears for me (anyone else have this from time to time?). Anyway, another comparison.
  
  Rosenberg's Swing '42, Live at Samois
  
  Titi Lamberger - "All of Me"
  
  -just off the cuff, mind you. Anyway, I hear a fairly obvious difference...all about taste, just as obviously. For me, I'm all in for Nous'che's style, a very light yet powerful style. Sometimes I find the "heavier" style can feel plodding, kind of a flatter, non-swinging feel.

  -Paul
  
  pas encore, j'erre toujours.
• dennis Montreal, QuebecModerator

  May 2013 Posts: 2,161

  Passacaglia wrote:

  Well, Angelo, I think Denis Chang's point is well taken. There's no such thing as a "German" school, a "Dutch School," an "Alsacian" school, because there's so much cross-fertilization. When I said "classic," I meant a sort of pure form (that may never have existed, really), a discernible taste.

  
  Wait, I just want to clarify, I meant that those terms were no longer relevant as they were in the past...
  
  I'm sure in the past (especially if you listen to old recordings) there was some truth to this..
  
  Listen to these guys for example, all german players
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE-YwKpyCqw
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbdQ5w5HZMw
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5QIAD6n9Ws
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEA6brtHeiA
  
  That last one being the one that many describe as "German" .. I also have a theory about this (and I fully admit I could be wrong), but back in the day.. Post Django , before 2000, there weren't many gypsy artists making commercial recordings, at least ones that were somewhat easy to find... The most prolific recording artists at that time were generally always the same guys, with the same rhythm players... Off the top of my head Fapy Lafertin who taught all his rhythm players to do the hotclub style rhythm and in some ways possibly influenced some of the younger Dutch players.. this style has the very distinctive swoosh upstroke... Then in Germany , you had Titi Winterstein/Häns'che Weiss/Lulu Reinhardt who generally always used the same rhythm players as well : Holzmano Winterstein or Rigo Winterstein...
  
  In France, you had Raphael Fays and Dorado Schmitt... Raphael Fays had his dad playing rhythm, and Dorado had Hono Winterstein whom we all know... Also a very young Bireli had his brother playing rhythm for him.. They're French and live very close to Dorado/Hono, yet their rhythm styles couldn't be more different... I think everyone is familiar with Hono's rhythm, now check out Bireli and his brother's rhythm in the early 1980s:
  
  http://www.djangostation.com/Bireli-swing-81,39.html
  
  Sounds closer to what one describe German doesn't it??? Granted, Alsace (the region where Bireli is from) is close to Germany but so is Forbach (where Dorado/Hono are from) which shares a border with Germany. And I've already mentioned that Hono and Dorado's rhythm styles are totally different as well.. These are two very old school players, so back then, there were instances of inconsistencies...
  
  And let's not forget Tchavolo either who is also from Alsace but whose rhythm style ressembles Hono's (although he tends to do a lot of that walking bass stuff)....
  
  and then people talk about the Paris style... Quite frankly I don't know what the Paris style ... I think it popular belief was that it was Ninie Garcia's style (correct me if i'm wrong). But again, people are basing their claims on whoever is the most popular at the time, and guess what Ninine is a staple in the Paris scene because he and his dad had been playing in the very same spot for ages... The thing is Paris has TONS of players, and there are many cliques , I can think of at least two, and the two don't often cross pathes , each stick to their own clique... kinda like in High School in North America haha.... I've noticed that when I've spent time in Paris, I hung out with each clique and noticed that they rarely mingle with eachother...
  
  Check out these rhythm styles from Paris:
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKS9D2PAlAQ
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWqdkGfx66w
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2EE-dcc1ck (sounds German doesn't it?)
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dq2oSaMVyiM
  
  So in just these four videos, you have a bunch of players from Paris , each with their own distinctive rhythm style.. And some of these guys have been around for a while too... Just who exactly is playinhg the "Parisian" style?!
  
  Really it's just one big mish mash....
  
  Again these are just my observations, however they are based on my very extensive travels and dealings with a multitude of players from various regions....

  www.facebook.com/denischangmusic
  www.denischang.com
  www.dc-musicschool.com
• Passacaglia Madison, WI✭✭✭✭

  May 2013 Posts: 1,471

  Wait, I just want to clarify, I meant that those terms were no longer relevant as they were in the past...

  
  Dennis, if I misapprehended your words, apologies. I took you to mean that if perhaps there was at some point, a tendency to "schools," it was a tendency, not an immutable "national" trait in rhythm...a tendency you could hear, with obvious individual inflections; but that especially with the growth of the music, and musicians coming to know each other's music ("cross-fertilzation"), this stuff blurred, as you say.
  
  That said, I do hear something very different between, say, the Bireli 15 Douce and the Rosenberg's Douce, and I'm not sure I can ascribe it all to individual style...I may be totally off, but I do hear a kind of heaviness in the drive, very different from Nous'che.
  
  At the end of the day, "national tendency" or not, I think it's amazing to live in an era where we can so freely explore this music, draw and incorporate it according to our own sensibilities and taste.

  -Paul
  
  pas encore, j'erre toujours.