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Gypsy Jazz Genealogy

MichaelHorowitzMichaelHorowitz SeattleAdministrator
edited January 2014 in History Posts: 5,772
People always ask me is Jimmy Rosenberg Stochelo's brother? Are the Rosenberg trio all brothers? Is Bireli Lagrene Django's grandson?This chart, which was published in the Dutch Quintette news letter should help answer some of those questions.

BTW, does anyone know the relation of Henri Piotto to Django? The chart has a line signifying some relationship. Maybe they where in-laws? I know that Henri played with Django some, but I never got the story on their familial relation.

Enjoy!

'm
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  • SoulShadeSoulShade NW Ohio, USANew
    Posts: 56
    Outstanding, thanks Michael! -s
  • Bob HoloBob Holo Moderator
    Posts: 1,240
    Hey Mr. Ethnomusicologist... ;-)

    You know what would be really cool to see (maybe the inside back cover of Vol3?)

    A musical genealogy. I don't know if it would be possible - you'd be in a better place to know if the learning style is mentor-based or "the community teaches the child" but the schools of playing and how they evolve is really interesting... could also be really deep and complex - maybe more of a paper than a chart... so I don't know how much economic motive there would be to spur the creation of it. For instance, your primary influence was your initial study with Fapy. I'm guessing Mathieu's initial study with (well, grew up around, but I guess that's studying) Schmitts. Stochelo & Paulus and many of the gents in that area studied at least some under Waso Grunholz. Sebastien & Jeremie are very much into the Eastern European artists - Bratch(sp?) & such. I don't know... maybe something like that would be too complex to be meaningful... the purpose being a more intuitive understanding of the flow of ideas and how/why they evolved the way they did. I've never asked Adrien or Rocky who their early gypsy influences are but I know they're both pretty rabid "Wes-o-philes" and you can hear that in their playing - Robin Nolan's too... lots of Wes in him but also a lot of blues and "British-Invasion" rockers. (Beatles/Stones/Who..) Andreas is a raging Benson-o-phile, but I don't know where he began his study of GJ. Gonzalo took a really solid background in electric blues & rock ala SRV/Winters Brothers/Hendrix and added 4th-wave GJ modern school to it and has brewed up a uniquely soulful and individual sound... etc...
    You get one chance to enjoy this day, but if you're doing it right, that's enough.
  • MichaelHorowitzMichaelHorowitz SeattleAdministrator
    Posts: 5,772
    That would be an interesting project....if you'll run DjangoBooks for a year I'd be happy to go and do the research! :D
  • Bob HoloBob Holo Moderator
    Posts: 1,240
    If you resurrect Busato to build guitars for me for a year, I'll do it...

    So perhaps it isn't feasible. Well, it is, but we'd have to raise the dead and get me to go back to running a "business" ... and I think both of those are equally unlikely ;-)
    You get one chance to enjoy this day, but if you're doing it right, that's enough.
  • LeonLeon New
    Posts: 1
    People always ask me is Jimmy Rosenberg Stochelo's brother? Are the Rosenberg trio all brothers? Is Bireli Lagrene Django's grandson?This chart, which was published in the Dutch Quintette news letter should help answer some of those questions.

    BTW, does anyone know the relation of Henri Piotto to Django? The chart has a line signifying some relationship. Maybe they where in-laws? I know that Henri played with Django some, but I never got the story on their familial relation.

    Enjoy!

    'm

    Great chart, very helpful.

    I have the same question about Maurice Ferret - any relation to the Ferret Brothers?

    Btw, I am new to the forum (great site btw) and while I have always enjoyed this music never made a concerted effort to study the history or delve much beyond the Django recordings. But now I find myself deeply immersed in the music and looking for as much info as I can find.
  • MitchMitch Paris, Jazz manouche's capital city!✭✭✭✭ Di Mauro, Lebreton, Castelluccia, Patenotte, Gallato
    Posts: 159
    Hi Guys,

    Well it's funny Bob I've been working about that musical genealogy for almost ten years now...
    I called it "Cercles manouches"...
    Well "working" maybe overrated but I have notes on that and I am constantly thinking of "school identification when I hear a new player.
    Like "who's in the steps of Matelo, who's in the steps of Tchan-Tchou, Stochelo, Benson, etc..."
    People in France like to put a label on people, trends... etc. It's rather a default than a quality by the way.

    Anyway defining the "school" of a player can be simple if he had one or several teachers but at the end all musicians are fed with multiple influences.
    Benoît Convert learned with the 100 % roots style Felix brothers and now is putting some Pat Metheny stuff in his playing, as a representant of the "new school of gypsy jazz"...
    Also, being in Paris it's easier to identify these trends by seeing with whom the great players tend to play and hang out. Samois is good for that too regarding the foreign players.

    But I should be able to go further in these analysis and share them pretty soon...
  • klaatuklaatu Nova ScotiaProdigy Rodrigo Shopis D'Artagnan, 1950s Jacques Castelluccia
    Posts: 1,645
    After we finished jamming last night on Lulu Swing, Steve Normandin asked me what relation Lulu Reinhardt is to Django, and I didn't know. Unfortunately, this genealogy does not answer that. Does anyone know? Lulo Reinhardt is said to be a grandnephew, but I can't find any biographical info on Lulu.
    Benny

    "It's a great feeling to be dealing with material which is better than yourself, that you know you can never live up to."
    -- Orson Welles
  • Ted GottsegenTed Gottsegen Rowayton, CTModerator
    Posts: 611
    This is a very confusing subject and seems to create more quesIn order to understand the familial relations non this music I think we need to take into account that gypsies tend to have large families and change names on as performers or other reasons.

    I met a man years ago named Olou Weiss who was another child of Django's father. How many others did Jean Weiss have? Was Eugene Vées (a French transliteration of Weiss); who was supposedly a cousin of Django's cousin, another son of Jean Weiss' or even a daughter? He had a son Mitsou who was an early teacher of Babik. Who were his descendants?

    Joseph had at least one child, a daughter who married Dingo Adel. Dingo (who played and recorded with Joseph Reinhardt) was alive and appears to be very health as of two or three years ago. How many kids did they have? Levis Adel Reinhardt is from this line and only adopted Reinhardt as he's etched out a career.. Django's first son Lousson had 15 children and from him comes Loumpie Baumgartner and Dallas. Some people have told me that Dallas is the son of one of Lousson's daughters or grand daughters. Others tell me that Dallas' mother married into the family and is not related at all. Other people have told me that he is Lousson's great-grandson. and Babik has three children that I know of. I've heard that he has upwards of 10 if not more kids. A young player based in Paris named Steven Reinhardt says he's Angelo's son. Several players in France have denied this. Angelo's wife's surname is Reinhardt. He even appears in video with Angelo's family at Django's grave. Is he related by birth or marriage.

    How many children did Django's sisters have? Tchavolo has said that he has 13 and I've met 8 of Dorado's 10 kids. If each of those descendants had 5 or more kids, not including "divorces" and "remarriages" you've got the makings of a pretty large dynasty. When all of this is taken into account it's easy to understand that when you have a bunch of people claiming to be related to Django, they actually are. To complicate matters even more, many gypsy fathers are absent and raised by their mothers and therefore take there name. Django and Joseph are the perfect example of that, as are Dino & Francko Merhstein who are the sons of Sony Reinhardt who played on Tchavolo's and Mandino Reinhardt's records.

    To make matters more confusing, many gypsies use alias'. Yorgui Loeffler and Moreno Winterstein for example. Yorgui is actually a Weiss (and his first name isn't Yorgui) and "Moreno Winterstein" is not Moreno's name at all. Holzmanno Winterstein became Holzmanno Lagrene for the Bireli's Gypsy Project record. Baro Landauer (the first guitarist with Mondine Garcia at La Chope des Puces) was Niglo Adel on recordings.

    Lulu to my knowledge is a Reinhardt, but to what degree I don't know. Probably a cousin. In which way we'll probably never know as gypsies tend to keep that stuff close unless they like/trust the people asking questions.

    So, I hope this in some way explains how it all works. It's by no means set in stone, but these are the tendencies you see in the community at large.

    All the best,

    Ted
  • klaatuklaatu Nova ScotiaProdigy Rodrigo Shopis D'Artagnan, 1950s Jacques Castelluccia
    Posts: 1,645
    Wow, that's really interesting, Ted, and far more information than I had expected. Just out of curiosity, what is Yorgui's real name, and Moreno's also?

    "Django's first son Lousson had 15 children ..." Well, as Groucho once said about someone similar, "I like my cigar, but I take it out once in a while!"
    Benny

    "It's a great feeling to be dealing with material which is better than yourself, that you know you can never live up to."
    -- Orson Welles
  • Ted GottsegenTed Gottsegen Rowayton, CTModerator
    Posts: 611
    Hey Ben,
    klaatu wrote:
    Wow, that's really interesting, Ted, and far more information than I had expected. Just out of curiosity, what is Yorgui's real name, and Moreno's also?

    Since none of the names have been published elsewhere if its all the same I'd rather not say. It's invasive and since I'm acquainted with both I don't want to be the one to let the cat out of the bag.

    Oh, also, Maurice Ferret is cousin of Matelo, Baro and Sarane.

    The chart above is a good, but a very small start and omits a lot of people. As wrote above, it's exhaustive and I don't think possible to fully document everyone from every family.

    All the best,

    Ted
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