Norgard's "Getting into Gypsy jazz Violin"?

Polkat · August 2008

Has anyone tried this book yet, and what did you think of it? Thanks!

dennis · August 2008

i checked out the samples on melbay website ... to be honest it doesn`t sound anything like gypsy jazz, or even jazz for that matter.... with all due respect to the author..

i`m surprised that mel bay released such a book considering that tim kliphuis` book (on melbay as well) will be released soon... that`s definitely something to look out for... he`s the real deal

Polkat · August 2008

Any idea when the Kliphius book will be available? I found nothing about it on the Melbay site.

dennis · August 2008

it was supposed to be out a while ago but melbay seems pretty slow, tim finished the book quite a while ago, maybe you can send him an email www.timkliphuis.com

daddyfruit · August 2008

On Tim's email list, he said the Mel Bay book would be out this month or next.
Cameron

Polkat · August 2008

Not too much information on Tim's website about this. Does anyone know what level the book has been written for?

dennis · August 2008

i haven't seen the book but i know how tim teaches... he'll basically be covering all the topics that are often overlooked in jazz violin pedagogy (ie the book you're originally asking about) such as "correct" jazz bowing techniques (bow strokes , tone, ghost notes, etc..), and proper left hand technique (no vibrato, use of open strings, etc...)

and he's even got transcriptions of grappelli solos in the book with the correct bow strokes, fingerings , etc...

this man not only plays fantastic old school jazz violin but he really knows how to teach it too, it's clear that he's really thought about a lot of these things to be able to explain it so well...

oh and btw, last june i did 2 instructional dvds with him on the same topic.... the first dvd alone is over 3 hours!!!! i will have clips posted this week and will keep you guys updated ...

djangadjo · August 2008

Polkat wrote:

Has anyone tried this book yet, and what did you think of it? Thanks!

I have it and I think it's excellent. A first-class guitar gypsy jazz guitar player (Greg Gunter) borrowed my copy and CD, and he also thought it was good. The guitar backup on Norgaard's book doesn't sound like a Gypsy Jazz player, but the violin instruction examples are very helpful. This book would be best for someone with some violin and music-reading experience.

Of course, I'm also looking for Tim's book -- after a workshop with him at Djangofest Northwest -- and I'd like to know if Dennis Chang and friend are bringing out their instruction for violin (DVD?) soon.

dennis · September 2008

i'm gonna post a more indepth review of mister norgaard's book/style. i hope he or his friends don't take it in the wrong way but he's not a jazz violinist. He can improvise for sure, he can play over jazz standards, but he doesn't sound like a jazz violinist (by which i mean, grappelli, stuff smith, lockwood, regina carter).. he sounds like a folk fiddler with a classical touch (listen to his jazz playing, he' using classical vibrato, which is a big nono in jazz, and his accents / bow strokes don't "swing")

even among jazz violinists there are different styles.. but they usually all have something in common with regards to their technique and phrasing : non-classical vibrato, a particular kind of rhythmic bowing accent , generally not a lot of bow pressure, etc... etc...

these are things mister norgaard is lacking.. it sounds like i'm bashing him, but i'm just trying to be objective and truthful... Now , i'm basing this strictly on his instructional books and his myspace/youtube clips. Who knows maybe he's hiding all of this!

Furthermore that doesn't mean he's a bad musician, far from that, i'm pretty sure he's a fantastic musician , specifically at what he does (folk fiddle)... i'm sure he can play circles around jazz violinists in that style.

his books on jazz violin and gypsy jazz violin are similar to kelly lancaster and michael dunn's gypsy jazz guitar DVDs... Anything but gypsy jazz...

on a side note, as a perpetual student, i'm constantly paranoid about instructional materials out there especially when it concerns musical styles that i'm unfamiliar with.

If you look into Norgaard's musical background, it seems he studied jazz with non violinist jazz musicians.. And from his books, it's clear that he does know a lot about jazz concepts and whatnot, so that in itself will allow him to play over just about any jazz standard or sit in with a jazz ensemble...

but a musical style is more than jsut concepts and notes, it's about culture; and that is the very thing that he is missing in his playing; the whole jazz violin culture, which has to do with bow grip, bow pressure, left hand, vibrato, ornaments, slides, etc.... none of which are covered in his books (correct me if i'm wrong i only went through them briefly)... and which is the defining element in jazz violin and ESPECIALLY "GYPSY JAZZ"

let me give you a real life example that everyone can understand. Let's say you want to learn english and you decide to go to a highschool in Korea to learn it. So the korean teacher teaches you to speak english from a textbook made in Korea...

now for sure you're going to learn the essential concepts of the english language and i'm sure you will be able to converse with an american.... but you will definitely not be speaking the standard american or british english.

that is exactly what martin norgaard's gypsy jazz book is; you'll definitely get some concepts out of it that will allow you to sit in with any gypsy jazz band... but it will be clear that you don't play in the style...

And then what is "gypsy jazz violin"? it is quite debatable... it's probably impossible to find a definition that will satisfy everyone... To some of it's grappelli, to others it's the Schnuckenack Reinhardt school , and then to others it's a mix of different things... Florin Niculescu, for example, has a lot of bebop culture, and his roumanian gypsy/classical training, and he mixes it all together...

Regardless of the difference in styles, grappelli, stuff smith, martin weiss, titi winterstein all have the "jazz violin" culture.... think of it as american english, canadian english, british english and australian english... different styles but nonetheless same culture as opposed to Korean english...

I hope no one takes offense to this but i just wanted to say something about it.. again that does not mean that i think martin norgaard is a bad musician, quite the contrary, on his youtube clips, he's smokin!! but he's definitely not playing gypsy jazz!

it's like in gypsy jazz guitar, michael horowitz is the first to release books that help people get into the "culture".

with tim kliphuis' dvd, these are the VERY things that we're trying to get across... i worked very hard with tim to codify these elements

if the dvds do well i hope to be able to release others with more modern players such as didier lockwood, ponti, etc...

djangadjo · September 2008

" (by which i mean, grappelli, stuff smith, lockwood, regina carter)."

I think you should listen again, especially to some of the European violinists, including Schnuckenack, José "Guilic" Adolpho : Charles "Tayoun" Doerr : Pierre "Bogho" Adolpho, Florin Niculescu, in regard to violin vibrato, jazz or otherwise. Also, Kliphuis (you're saying he does NOT use a "classical vibrato" ?) and Christian Garrick, and then Dorado playing on the Latcho Drom video. And -- given the "Korean English" analogy -- let's also include Yoshifumi Yamamoto's violinist Yu-Ma -- is this "Gypsy Jazz Violin with a Japanese accent?

There is no one kind of "classical vibrato." A classical violinist has a variety of vibrato styles. And these various styles can be found among the "jazz violin vibratos" used by players we all enjoy. There really is no one kind of "Jazz vibrato," anymore than there is one kind of "jazz voice."

Listen to Georges Effrosse on "Royal Blue" with Ferret, or Eddie South on early Reinhardt recordings. Compare with the vibrato of Claude Williams -- Claude IS jazz, yes?

So, there are many kinds of vibrato and much discussion. And Norgaard's book, which I found very useful, does not focus on vibrato, and the few bowing examples are useful, also. Mostly his book is for someone who reads music on the violin and would like to get started -- the title is not "Mastering Gypsy Jazz Violin," it's "Getting into Gypsy Jazz Violin."

djangadjo · September 2008

"
with tim kliphuis' dvd, these are the VERY things that we're trying to get across... i worked very hard with tim to codify these elements

if the dvds do well i hope to be able to release others with more modern players such as didier lockwood, ponti, etc..."

I'll buy the DVD if it has violin ideas on it, but where do I get it?

----------------
Meanwhile, how about some review of these books:
1. Swingin' Jazz Violin - Improvisation And Musicianship For Fiddlers. Matt Glaser.
2. Didier Lockwood and Francis Darizcuren
Cordes et ame: Méthode d’improvisation et de violon jazz
3. Swing Jazz Violin with Hot-Club Rhythm
by Jeremy Cohen & Dix Bruce

Would be interested in your opinions...