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FabriceS Silvano

Minor (maj7th)

andyandy New
edited February 2005 in Gypsy Jazz 101 Posts: 80
I'm going through Wrembel's book and liking it a lot. He provides a really comprehensive set of arpeggios in open and closed positions that are incredibly useful for a sausagey-fingered buffoon like me. Most of the applications seem self-evident, but just one question -- what would you play a minor (maj7th) over? The chord itself I guess, but what else does it sound good against?

Cheers,
Andy

Comments

  • CalebFSUCalebFSU Tallahassee, FLModerator Made in USA Dell Arte Hommage
    Posts: 557
    Andy good question. This would would be a good one for you theory guys out there (Dennis, Michael anyone) I always learned that you can use a Harmonic minor over this type of chord. but that seems like a highly simplistic answer. If anyone can shed some light on this I would also be much obliged.
    Hard work beats talent, when talent doesn't work hard.
  • JackJack western Massachusetts✭✭✭✭
    Posts: 1,911
    To my ears, you hear this scale a lot in klezmer music (if you play it, you'll hear that distinctive jump from the minor sixth to the major seventh), though I haven't looked into Stephane's book-I'm assuming his minor/maj7th scale is the same as the harmonic minor. One other idea (keep in mind, it's late here) would be to try it over the V7 chord, which would give you the third, the #5, the b7, and the b9 of the V chord, as well as the root and fifth. Just an idea, though.

    Best,
    Jack.
  • dennisdennis Montreal, QuebecModerator
    Posts: 2,049
    i think he was asking for what chord the arpeggio goes over

    it'll work over the chord of the same name as you guessed, it will also work over a plain minor triad... it will work over a minor6th chord... it will also work over a m7th if you're careful with the maj7th interval (ie treat it as a leading tone that needs to resolve to the tonic)

    those are the most obvious choices but it will work over other chords as well if you're creative about it (ie it can work over chords from the harmonic minor mode that share common-tones)

    to answer Caleb's question, something that a lot of the more modern jazzers do besides the more obvious choices of harmonic/melodic minor is play whole tone starting on any of the chord factors (minor 3rd, perfect 5th, maj7th) except the tonic... one note will tend to sound "out" and that would be the b9 so you have to be a bit careful for what kind of sound you're going after

    it's also something favored by the dutch school of gypsy players (ie Stochelo Rosenberg)... if you listen to the recording of Douce Ambiance at the djangobooks website (where michael is jamming with paulus), paulus uses this concept... they tend to avoid playing the b9 though... in some ways if you dont play the 9 or b9 it can be a bit ambiguous but you can clearly hear the whole-tone sonority....
  • marcieromarciero Southern MaineNew
    Posts: 120
    Not sure if this is what is being discussed, but Ive heard it used over the chord a 4th above the root. It's a 9b5 in this context. This is kind of a converse to what Jack mentioned. As an example, in Coquette in D on one of the Jimmy Rosenberg records, the B part has ii V in G, then ii-V in A (that is, Bmin, E7) then Emin A7. Angelo Debarre playing the rhythm, played Bmin/maj on the E7, then Emin then Adomb9. There are lots of places to use this kind of thing.

    mike
  • nwilkinsnwilkins New
    Posts: 431
    Since E7 is very similar to Bmin6 the Bmin/maj7 works as the descending voice in the minor line (root-7-b7-6)
  • djangologydjangology Portland, OregonModerator Dell Arte Hommage
    Posts: 887
    Since E7 is very similar to Bmin6 the Bmin/maj7 works as the descending voice in the minor line (root-7-b7-6)

    yeah, i agree with that. whenever i see this chord I try to use it as the start of a voice lead.

    one thing i notice is that the D harmonic minor works over the A7 chord in Dark Eyes. and so, in answer to the question that started this thread, from that you notice that the first chord in the D harmonic minor chord scale is a Dmin/maj chord and the fifth degree of that is an A7b9 . with this being the case the D harmonic minor fits perfect over an A7 chord. basically saying that you play the harmonic minor a 4th above a 7th chord, especially when that 7th chord is the V in a ii-V-1 progression.

    am I crazy here or is this true? i welcome any criticism of my theory.
    ---
    "I want to party like its 1939!"
  • JackJack western Massachusetts✭✭✭✭
    Posts: 1,911
    djangology wrote:
    one thing i notice is that the D harmonic minor works over the A7 chord in Dark Eyes. and so, in answer to the question that started this thread, from that you notice that the first chord in the D harmonic minor chord scale is a Dmin/maj chord and the fifth degree of that is an A7b9 . with this being the case the D harmonic minor fits perfect over an A7 chord. basically saying that you play the harmonic minor a 4th above a 7th chord, especially when that 7th chord is the V in a ii-V-1 progression.

    am I crazy here or is this true? i welcome any criticism of my theory.

    I think we're talking about the same thing (see above-"One other idea...").

    Best,
    Jack
  • marcieromarciero Southern MaineNew
    Posts: 120
    from that you notice that the first chord in the D harmonic minor chord scale is a Dmin/maj chord and the fifth degree of that is an A7b9 . with this being the case the D harmonic minor fits perfect over an A7 chord. basically saying that you play the harmonic minor a 4th above a 7th chord, especially when that 7th chord is the V in a ii-V-1 progression.

    am I crazy here or is this true? i welcome any criticism of my theory.

    Definitely not crazy. The same reasoning applies to the melodic minor; that is, that A7 is the fifth degree of the harmonized D mel minor scale. (And Dmin/maj7 is the first.) More generally, as a guide to which chords a given scale will "fit" over, you can ask the question "In which scale does this chord appear and what is the degree?" This is one interpretation of the modes.
    Actually, since it's only the interval that is important, you only need three scales-ionian, mel minor and harm minor, (This leaves out the many exotic non-western scales) and you can just imagine "starting" on different degrees.

    mike
  • CynekulCynekul New
    Posts: 38
    Wrembel's book suggests you can use the harmonic minor scale (min/maj7 scale) based on the root of the i chord over both the V chord and the i chord in a minor V-i. What he doesn't tell you, however, is that you can use harmonic minor based off of the i chord over the entire minor ii-V-i progression and it works well.

    ~Paul
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