Gypsy Picking...impossible

Jon

Now that's a good post! Thanks @dennis

Shemi

Great post Dennis! I was thinking to ask the other day if anyone new of a book on the history of various picking techniques. If there isn't you should write one. I for one would certainly buy it.

BluesBop Harry

Great post @dennis!

I knew Django didn't invent rest-strokes but what about the mix with upstrokes, but always changing strings with a down and the DUD, DDU patterns? That whole system is what I understand as "Gypsy Picking" and what I wrote comes from Django...

Does that precede him as well? I was under the impression that unifying those techniques on guitar for jazz playing was one of Django's contributions

dennis

About 10 years or so ago, I stumbled upon a book at a library, it was a guitar method from the early 20th century for plectrum style guitar. In it, the author briefly described starting a new string with a downstroke. I will have to see if I can find this book again. Searching on google is not proving very fruitful, as most of the books are for fingerstyle/classical guitar technique.

djangobooks is selling Nick Lucas' (I posted one of his videos in my previous post) method as an e-book, if michael reads this, maybe he can check it out to see if there's any mention of right hand technique. Nick Lucas is from Django's generation, and he clearly uses that technique.

Check out this clip from 1922, waaaaaay before django's career started:



We can clearly hear it in the tone; it's the picking technique that us django nerds are all so familiar with!!!

The thing about django that set him apart from all other plectrum based players at the time was his unprecedented (at least on known recording) technical virtuosity. He was playing all sorts of flashy riffs/phrases that no one else was playing at the time.

How aware was django about his technique, we'll never know. I know that a lot of Gypsy musicians are barely aware of what they're doing as far as technique goes. Like I said, I think it s always been about tone/projection above all else. If Django did DUD, DDU, or whatever , it was because he wanted an accent on a particular note. He was not following a specific rule per se.

Stochelo is the same way, he has his way of picking certain lines that his own brother Mozes does not do; it's a personal thing.

If we consider four notes played as 8th notes: E F F# G

let's say it starts on beat 1.

I can imagine three typical ways of picking the notes:

D U D U

D U D D

D D D D

The first pattern is straight alternate picking, it results in accents on downbeats.

The second pattern accents the last offbeat.

The third pattern makes the tone consistent throughout.

Now if we were to play the same pattern, displaced by an 8th note, in other words, starting on an offbeat and landing on a downbeat, these could be plausible picking patterns:

D U D D
U D U D
D D D D

1st one accents the first and last notes. In this case the offbeat is accented.

in the second example, only downbeats are accented

3rd example , even tone


Now if we play this pattern as pure triplets, i can think of two plausible patterns:

D U D U
D U D D

The first one is a pattern that Angelo uses sometimes, he doesn't always care to have the accent on the last note which is on the downbeat, and the accent for him is on the very first note. He uses this pattern on his waltz La Manouche.

The second pattern is favored by stochelo, and emphasizes the last note...

U D U D is possible as well, but i dont know of any gypsy guitar player who would play that way.

D D D D , would probably be too fast at a faster tempo since we're dealing with triplets...

All this to say, that the "rules" ( i prefer the term guideline) are not as strict as one might be led to believe

Al Watsky

No rest stroke ?
Not much sound.
Sort of the end of the story.
Theres plenty of folks on the GJ scene who alternate pick using all free stroke, it doesn't sound so awesome but they can shred.
I prefer strong melodic statements, personally and try to use as many rest strokes as is possible in a phrase. Its very hard to maintain velocity and tone, generally the faster one goes the lower the volume at least past a certain point.
So much of what we play these days is amplified in one way or another. Clearly many players have decided to choose speed over tone and projection.
So a post modern technique emerges.
So be it.
The Ud is clearly the antecedent of the guitar and is the repository of all plectrum technique . If you watch some folks playing Ud your going to see some very well developed free up stroke after resting down stroke playing.
I would say its well advised to develop a good tremolo as a way to help to strengthen the hand for an Ud like hand position which will strengthen the resting down stroke.

Charles Meadows

Hey Dennis,

Could you explain what you mean with DUDU and DUDD played as triplets? I know la manouche very well.

Jim Kaznosky

@Al Watsky - Whats the best way to develop a good tremolo?

MichaelHorowitz

@dennis There's no specific mention of the rest-stroke in the Nick Lucas book, nor the Eddie Lang or Van Eps books. Van Eps does go into more detail about the right hand and, although he doesn't mention the rest-stroke, most of what he says about hand position and grip is consistent with Gypsy Picking.

The mandolin methods are more explicit, with the Bickford Mandolin Method instructing the student to use a free floating wrist, rest-strokes, and downstrokes on string changes just like in Gypsy Picking.

Jazzaferri

Didn't playing guitar with a pick start with steel strings.....can't remember which decade...teens or twenties maybe?

Al Watsky

Jim Kaznosky wrote: »

@Al Watsky - Whats the best way to develop a good tremolo?

Tremolo obsession is a great start.
Then its a matter of moving through the possibilities. There as many positions for tremolo as there are players. The one that I'm referring to in this context maintains the bent wrist and the position for rest stroke and strumming but will result in a free up stroke.
The other I use is the free stroke non resting tremolo which is the most common for mandolin. There are others. All involve varying degrees of involvement of the arm, wrist ,fingers and thumb.
When I see you in JCity one of these days I'll show you .
I think of the one I use most as derived from Ud, as is a lot of the pick technique I use. Its the most powerful stroke.