[Controversial] Why is there not any great US guitarists?

Russell Letson

Back to basics (because I used to be a teacher and am still a pedant): If this is a question of aesthetics, there just aren't any easy answers, since "good," "better," and "best" are judgments made inside individual nervous systems which are not necessarily calibrated to a single standard. So the question "Is X a better guitarist/painter/actor than Y" needs to be recast as some kind of quantitative or statistical question: "How many copies of Tune A did each sell?" "How many shows did each sell out at Venue B?" And even then, there are variables that affect the outcome that have nothing to do with the quality of the artist's work. (Bad marketing; bad weather; economic downturn; a boy-band tour at the same time.)

Recasting the question in a different direction, as one of technical skill, seems to me to change its nature, but at least it offers some parameters that are not utterly subjective. Can X or Y play a given tune at a tempo of Z BPM? Can each play that tune in all 12 keys? Which one knows more of the standard repertory? (Which poses another bunch of sub-questions.) These are questions that speak to a skill set and a level of technical achievement. But they don't tell you which player is more "musical"--because musicality is like beauty: it's either individual-subjective or a matter of statistical observation of the preferences of a group of people. And with art, those preferences can be affected by non-artistic factors--like national or ethnic pride or simple familiarity. (I had a aunt who couldn't stand Frank Sinatra because he was an immoral man.)

Of course, I speak from a particular philosophical point of view. Platonists and perhaps Thomists might disagree.

BTW, the gypsy-jazz or Hot Club or Django-tradition world reminds me strongly of another artistic realm I'm familiar with: Hawaiian music. There are those who insist that no haole (the Hawaiian rough equivalent to gadjo) can play authentic-sounding slack key guitar. But I know plenty of Hawaiian players who are happy to play with mainlanders, and there are mainland players who make very respectable Hawaiian style music. I don't think we have a mainland Led Kaapana or Cyril Pahinui yet, but even Hawai`i only has a couple of those.

And why are all the great American polka bands in Wisconsin, eh? Just answer me that.

Bones

Hawaiian, Bob Brozman is haole...

Now we've really hijacked this thread. Might be a good thing....

kevorkazito

Phil wrote:

Archtop Eddy wrote:

Ahem... ladies and gentlemen -- a special "Private-Reserve" YouTube just for you! AE

NICE ONE EDDY!

I promised myself to not come back to this zero-sum, pi55ing match but like a bad car wreck I could not resist... and I'm glad I did.

Thanks for that AE! You summed up this topic perfectly... like I always say, we will never know who the best players are because they are all in the woodsheds, bedrooms or basements.

Live, laugh, love and strum...

Jazzaferri

And to pour a bit of gasoline on someones fire..... :twisted:

There is a large establishment in jazz, centered on the Lincoln Center under the leadership of Wynton Marsalis...who would consider gypsy jazz to not be jazz at all. Improvisational music absolutely, cool to,some i'm sure..but not jazz as they define it.

kevingcox

Who in the blazes is Winston Marcellus?

MaximusVolumus

hanear21 wrote:

The problem only arises when there are, in fact, none of these simpler melodic lines being played. Some would argue that even some of the "modern greats" of this genre are guilty of this.

Like who? None comes to mind.

Stringswinger

Someone asked about Wynton. Pretty good player in my book.

Vignola does pretty well without a second guitarist.



Any proof that Wynton doesn't think Gypsy jazz is reaL jazz?

Jazzaferri

Had to listen to an hour long interview with him..we had a 2 hour discussion in class about it..read dozens of threads on Sax on the web forum. Listened to his younger brother Jason bang on about it.

He is a very controversial figure in jazz....paid nearly a million a year to head up the Lincoln Centre Jazz program...has very strong veiws on what jazz is and isn't.

Has trod on some pretty high level toes......Keith Jarret and a number of others...read the Wiki article on him..at the bottom is a section on criticisms...good for a laugh. There are a number of top "jazz" players who say rather unpleasant things about Wynton....guys who are normally pretty mild spoken....I would imagine based on what I overheard Jason saying in a club in New Orleans in intermission...the most of the family holds pretty strong views...their father is a musician and music educator...

No doubt he has got awesome chops

kevingcox

Keith Jarret? As in that dude from The Rolling Stones?

hanear21

MaximusVolumus wrote:

hanear21 wrote:

The problem only arises when there are, in fact, none of these simpler melodic lines being played. Some would argue that even some of the "modern greats" of this genre are guilty of this.

Like who? None comes to mind.

I don't really want to name names, because these boards are frequented by famous players and I think it would be disrespectful. But I've heard, on several occasions, arguments that some of these guys just shred mindlessly. Here's one example of such a discussion: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=10747&hilit=speed+musicality