Scrutinizing the quality of tone on upstrokes

mikegnik

Hi folks,

After spending time with Michael's Gypsy Picking book, working with other books and videos, and taking picking classes at Django in June this year, I feel fairly confident that I am on right track with respect to right hand technique in this style. Still plenty to learn and practice of course, but the basics seem to be in place.

However, when one plays "into the guitar" with the pick coming down at something like a 45 degree angle, the result is a strong, clear guitar tone. But when one does follow this with an upstroke, the angle is now 45 degrees in the opposite direction, therefore playing away from the guitar and not "exciting" the string and top of the instrument nearly as well. My ear perceives a definite lack of tone and projection as compared to the strength of the down stroke.

However, if I reduce the angle of my pick, the upstroke is less away from the top of the guitar and more toward my chin, but this seems a little unnatural.

Perhaps I can get a second opinion. Do you hear a substantial difference in the tone of upstrokes in your playing as well? I wonder if the weaker upstroke has more to do with my technique (pick angle?), or more to do with gypsy picking altogether.

Thanks for weighing in. I searched the forum a couple of times, but resulted with an empty basket on this particular conundrum.

Jazzaferri

You will hear a substantial difference in tone for quite a while. Over time the upstroke difference becomes much less. Part of the stylemis the use of that difference.

If you are playing slowly and want the same tone play all downstrokes. Te upstoke motio is pretty much the same you just miss the string.

mikegnik

Thanks J...

I have learned to use downstrokes only in slower passages for a more consistent tone. Same for string skips in something like Bossa Dorado, despite being less economical (ie economy picking) to not play down/up but rather down/down.

Adjusting the angle of the pick seems to help, so I am trying not to flatten the pick too much as to maintain a better tone. Fairly easy adjustment, actually. Got to find a better spot for a mirror in my music room!

I would be curious, since you mentioned it, as to how the difference in tone between down and upstrokes are part of the style as you see it. When you say that, I am thinking particularly about RH triplet picking when you say that (down up down, down up down), but am also wondering if there is something else you had in mind that hadn't occurred to me.

Interesting also to hear that this difference changes over time... the upstroke obviously needs to be relaxed, but I notice if the wrist is too "lazy" the tone suffers. The Olympics have me reinforcing that never-ending balancing act between support and relaxation that all musicians face.

wim

in my opinion it is natural for the downstroke to be louder and stronger than the upstroke, and it is a good thing and it can sound better because it creates a kind of swing (not so much in the timing, but in the alternating strong and weak notes). listen for example to tchan-tchou version of la gitane in the long descending chromatic phrase, you can clearly hear which is the downstroke and which is the upstroke, and you can also clearly hear he starts on an upstroke when changing string in this phrase. and it gives the phrase a nice kind of trot to it. compare to stochelo version on the waltz dvd, where he plays downstroke on the changing string and kind of destroys the 'feel' of that phrase, it sounds a bit awkward and not as good as the tchan-tchou one to my ears. and just for kicks you can see when joscho stephan plays it, he starts on the alternate picking and then switches to all downstrokes for that phrase, accenting them heavily.

i guess what i'm trying to say is it's a strange goal to try and make the upstroke sound like a downstroke. even if it were possible, it would make your playing sound less interesting - better to be aware of the difference and know how to use it to get whatever sound you want out of a certain phrase!

Jazzaferri

I think it an excellent thing to be able to play upstrokes nearly the same as downstrokes as then one would have generated enough pick control to allow for a range of expression on the upstrokes, just like the downstrkes.

I try, to the best of my ability, to be able to play upstokes with good tone through a range of volume and attack styles.

I have never heard anyone who does sound identical though i have heard some who at speed are hard to tell apart. That doesnt mean they ont exist though.

mikegnik

Great post Wim, thank you for the links. Took me a second to realize my iPhone wasn't on the fritz and you had somehow linked the song to start at the excerpt displaying the chromatic run. It was nice to listen to a couple full takes on this tune this morning anyway:)

I wouldn't presume an upstroke could ever sound equal to a down, but it definitely shouldn't pale in comparison, as I see it. I agree w J in trying to make them close in tone to allow the instrument to speak, the difference in physics and weight will always keep the downstroke as the stronger sound. There seemed to be a pronounced difference and it was bugging me, and am happy to get some other takes on this item.

A little experiment and hypothesizing:

An upstroke can too be played as a rest stroke, but as far as I see it, not if you have a bent wrist and "fan out the match" following the conventional wisdom with GJ. Now now...I am not cashing in my posture and leveraged downstroke for a better upstroke. I feel like this could have it's place in the right circumstance, possibly if you are palm-muting for some percussion and/or just want an über-even sound in terms of volume but too fast for all downstrokes. I feel like I have seen this type of picking before, but do not recall where. Obviously, the rest stroke in RH is the norm for classical playing, but I mean rest stroke in both directions with a pick... maybe it was a bouzouki player.

makabey

The idea of both rest strokes (up and down) is very interesting.

I use this quite often for loud and fast passages. However I would say that when using this technique the downstroke is a bit different to the mere "Gypsy Rest Stroke". The Gypsy Rest Stroke can be done more "into the guitar" motionwise. Rest ups and downs can be achieved by lowering the pick into the string plain while alternate picking, which produces fatter tone.

The question is rather: What makes your stroke a rest stroke? Merley letting rest the pick onto the next string (which would not necessarliy mean that force applied to the motion is in dircetion to the corpus) or picking the string about straight against the corpus?